League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[kitty]

It would have been a team fight of 3 if Ori and Soraka didn't melt in 3 hits.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Lifesteal does get crazy... once got destroyed by a Fiora who would literally heal more than half of her health in one auto attack.

[DragonAvenger]

Gouge 'em, Valor!

[kitty]

gouge 'em, valor!

Imma bear!!!

[relyanCe]

yasuo support is fun

negating a full ranged combo from the likes of Ez or Graves is just

well it's REALLY funny

[Ryan Jobson]

havent' tried yasuo yet. still saving up! is he worth it?

[kitty]

If you enjoy pulling off high-level plays then yes.

[prophetik music]

i have to admit, playing with everyone a lot has allowed me to dig into characters i don't get to play often, and that's fun. i like that yorick's back to being a good champ again, and that characters like kayle and others are still successful champs.

now they just need to fix treebeard and things will be as they should be.

[Nabeel Ansari]

If you enjoy pulling off high-level rape then yes.

the knockups

*cough*

[Seven]

Lifesteal is hardly a broken mechanic, its just that most teams don't build enough CC. Soraka, Ez and Orianna are all also very weak when behind.

That being said, Yasuo is definitely emerging as an outplaying machine. I suck at him though x_x.

Nerf Riven please, too horrendously broken.

Edit: I'm levelling an Urgot only smurf, he's actually so fun... Summoner name is Arcsine (lvl 15) if anyone is interested in queuing up together!

Edited December 27, 2013 by Seven

[The Author]

You gotta counter build lifesteal basically. Anything that applies grievous wounds can turn a lifesteal / health regen beast into a crying puppy.

[kitty]

Grievous Wounds, considering the limited options to apply it like Executioner's Calling and Morellonomicon, isn't an acceptable answer to lifesteal. EC would be great, but the stats on it blow donkey nuts.

I find it somewhat ironic that you call Riven broken because part of the underlying problem is that building lifesteal on her is extremely effective while getting a massive shield. She heals herself while not taking damage off her life bar. If you think Grievous Wounds solves everything then play Renekton with an EC and win every time.

I will concede that, yes, lifesteal by itself is not the problem. (see Riven example above). You (Seven) are correct in saying that building CC is the answer...when you apply it in a specific scenario in your head ala "just CC the ADC and kill them." The problem with the current meta, and this I believe is hardly arguable, is that bruisers are really strong right now because of the new defense masteries. Most bruisers will build one lifesteal item, mostly a Ravenous Hydra. The thing about that though is that teams in general are all becoming tankier. In addition, Leona, Taric, and Thresh all became top tier support picks overnight. My point here is that ADCs, while weaker in a 1v1 matchup with bruisers, are enjoying much much more CC and peel in team fights with a team that knows what they're doing. This also means it's much harder to apply Grievous Wounds to them because it's harder to get to them and stick to them.

[The Author]

I know it isn't easy to apply grievous wounds. If it was, it would be OP. I'm just saying that beyond crowd control, there are other ways to counter lifesteal. And morello is actually a very simple way to apply grievous wounds.

[zircon]

I'm still in the camp that ADCs are too weak right now aside from the common top tier picks. Older carries like Caitlyn, Ashe and Tristana basically NEED 3-4 items to do any real damage. Not only are bruisers generally better overall, with shields, health boosts, damage reduction, etc., armor is generally better and health is easy to come by. PLUS, modern bruisers have better gap closers than ever.

I think they need to nerf the big armor items and make ADC itemization better. It's frustrating when Nami or Taric can 1v1 the AD Carry 20-25 minutes into a game.

[kitty]

I know it isn't easy to apply grievous wounds. If it was, it would be OP. I'm just saying that beyond crowd control, there are other ways to counter lifesteal. And morello is actually a very simple way to apply grievous wounds.

Edit: what I wrote earlier was assholeish. I apologize.

I also do not mean to counter what you said, which is what I wanted to say in a less antagonizing way.

ANYWAY, I'm a little confused on what you said, as your first and last statements seem to contradict each other.

Edited December 28, 2013 by kitty

[Bleck]

It's frustrating when Nami or Taric can 1v1 the AD Carry 20-25 minutes into a game.

I'm not too broken up about the 'ranged carry' actually having to be carried through a game.

[Ryan Jobson]

So many throws tonight..... sooo many...

[zircon]

I'm not too broken up about the 'ranged carry' actually having to be carried through a game.

I'd be OK with it if they scaled relatively hard by lategame. But tons of other champions are currently scaling quite hard as well. For example, as Jarvan IV, I can build relatively tanky and be able to generally blow up an AD carry at most any point in the game, including lategame. Maybe not at the VERY very end but most games do not get that far... and even if I'm not quite able to kill them when we both have 6 items and full elixirs, I can usually force them out of the fight completely, while also disrupting the enemy team. Outside of teamfights I also have a lot more utility. I can set up ganks, solo dragon much earlier, influence/pressure other lanes, etc.

Likewise, a farmed Nasus, Rengar, or Lee Sin will do pretty incredible amounts of damage AND cc throughout a fight while also taking a lot of damage. It's really not uncommon to see the jungler or top laner doing more damage to champions by the game's end. Phrased another way, if the enemy Tristana gets 3 kills in the first 5 minutes, it's going to be a problem, but it's not a guaranteed win by any means. On the other hand, if the enemy Lee Sin jungler gets 3 kills in 5 minutes, he'll have an almost unstoppable presence throughout the ENTIRE game from that point on.

I'm not arguing in favor of boosting ADC survivability, but again just tweaking the itemization so they have more tools to deal with all-in bruisers, while also making armor items less of a no-brainer pick for ANY jungler, top, support, etc. Honestly if they did nothing but revert some of the Black Cleaver and Botrk nerfs, that might be enough to tilt the scales back a bit.

Edited December 29, 2013 by zircon

[kitty]

ADCs will need more tweaking than just itemization to achieve what you want, Andy. The problem with just reverting nerfs to BC and Blade is that many bruisers pick up those items as well.

[Bleck]

The only way to solve the itemization problem is to have individual items available to characters based on their role/class/whatever; there's virtually no easy way to fix the itemization problems with marksmen and supports (and, to a lesser extent, junglers) that can't inherently be taken advantage of by fighters and mages.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Except that enforces meta, and Riot is too lazy to do that and would rather have the players design their game for them.

[zircon]

ADCs will need more tweaking than just itemization to achieve what you want, Andy. The problem with just reverting nerfs to BC and Blade is that many bruisers pick up those items as well.

There are a couple possible answers here. For one thing, there are melee-only items like Ravenous Hydra that may be balanced to be better picks than Marksmen items by melee characters. It's also possible to adjust stats so that they benefit largely Marksmen than melees, either by having raw "ranged only" benefits, OR by adding things like critical chance/attack speed, which generally aren't great picks on bruisers who rely more on skill damage than repeated auto attacks.

Runaan's Hurricane is a good example of a ranged-only item that is simply underpowered. Here's a creative solution just to show what I'm talking about:

* +50% attack speed

* Activated: +15% movement speed for 3 seconds (60 second cooldown)

* Passive: Ranged attacks get two additional minor bolts, which do additional damage to close-range targets.

It's not perfect, but with a tweak like this, it could (a) be useful for ADCs to escape from insane gap closers like Rengar, Kha'Zix, Vi, Riven, etc., and ( add more damage to deal with assassins. On the other hand, nothing about this item is good for bruisers.

I'm not a game designer but I think there are a lot of possibilities to create items like this, that aren't mindless +attack damage (which everyone loves), and benefit either bruisers OR marksmen specifically.

[BardicKnowledge]

Hydra really needs a slight nerf, IMO -- attacking in the middle of a creep mob shouldn't lifesteal from every creep. Changing this would go a long way towards adjusting the current power balance between brusiers and ADC, as bruisers can leave the fight, refill health on creeps, and re-engage in under 5 seconds with Hydra.

It's worth noting that Hydra is very powerful atm while Hurricane is an absolutely terrible purchase on almost every ranged character.

[kitty]

The thing about going down the "ranged-only" item build without going even more specific like "marksmen only" is that concepts like "bruiser Nidalee" or "tank Mordekaiser" will get their last nail in the coffin (and these aren't even that strange). Riot is losing players to Dota 2 partly because Dota lets you do silly strats and/or has more interesting heroes. League needs to keep strange choices available to keep the game alive.

Completely agree with Bardic.

Although ADCs can also leave a fight and come back with 100% health after hitting a few monsters in the jungle with their own lifesteal items.

Edited December 30, 2013 by kitty

[Nabeel Ansari]

ADCs to escape from insane gap closers like Rengar

lol

escape

rengar