Sunken Dreams - Metroid Prime (Crashed Frigate) - Orchestral Mix *****Version 5 Update*****

[jordanrooben]

I'v had a lot of free time this weekend, and as a result here's yet another mix. This time, I'm working on a lamentably under appreciated song from an equally under appreciated game. The crashed frigate theme from Metroid prime. It's not quite an orchestral mix because I added a considerable amount of effects, but the bones are still orchestral though. Besides general feedback, I do have a few more specific questions. First, does the intro fit with the soundscape, and does it add to the song? Second, is the transition into the second section smooth enough, and if not how could it improve? Last, did I add too much change for the song, or does it work? I'm somewhat concerned it evolved too fast. Well, assuming I did okay on this, enjoy!

Version 1: http://soundcloud.com/jordanrooben/sunken-dreams-3

Version 2: http://soundcloud.com/jordanrooben/sunken-dreams-2

- Added some rhythmic piano chords to the backing of the first section

- Added emphasizing piano notes to the interlude in order to separate the different sections

- Added wave-like piano notes throughout the melody

- Replaced some of the flute notes with piano notes to give the mix a spacier feel before the interlude

Version 3: http://soundcloud.com/jordanrooben/sunken-dreams-v-3

- Extended the intro

- Added various pads throughout to increase the atmosphere

- Altered the volume levels for (hopefully) better mixing

Version 4: http://soundcloud.com/jordanrooben/sunken-dreams-7

- Changed the melody played during the intro

- Changed the flute to an electric piano during the interlude

- Made the piano solo section before the interlude louder

- Put more work into the transition to that section

- Changed the harp at the end into a piano

- Decreased the amount of times the wave piano notes play

- Added more reverb to the piano arpeggios in the second section

Version 5: http://soundcloud.com/jordanrooben/sunken-dreams-5

- Changed a few instruments

- Altered some effects and volume

- Took out some pads that were clouding up the mix

[OfficialJab]

Metroid Prime definitely is not under-appreciated. Neither is the theme, though it is not remixed enough. This is extremely good. My ears felt like they were being scratched at 1:10. Also, I'd say the notes starting at 1:32 need to be spaced a little differently, or echo in a noticeable way. If I didn't already know how the song went, I wouldn't be able mentally to separate one set from the next. They're in groups of 5, but sound like they'd be in 4's.

I apologize for being awful at explaining things. I'll be watching this mix expectantly.

[Moot]

Nice so far! To work backwards, I think the second half (after that little solo piano thing) is a lot stronger than the first. It sounded a lot fuller and I liked what was going between the strings and the piano. The piano transition was fine, though it felt a little strangely placed to me. I think it sounds more like an intro than a transition. In fact, it might sound cool to start with the piano going into the second part and then move what you have in the beginning to after the second part, essentially flipping what you have. Hopefully that makes sense Happy musicing!

[jordanrooben]

Metroid Prime definitely is not under-appreciated. Neither is the theme, though it is not remixed enough. This is extremely good. My ears felt like they were being scratched at 1:10. Also, I'd say the notes starting at 1:32 need to be spaced a little differently, or echo in a noticeable way. If I didn't already know how the song went, I wouldn't be able mentally to separate one set from the next. They're in groups of 5, but sound like they'd be in 4's.

I apologize for being awful at explaining things. I'll be watching this mix expectantly.

Don't worry, I understood what you meant just fine. The high pitched flute notes at 1:10 are now piano notes, so it shouldn't be an issue any more. Sorry! Make sure to listen to the new interlude because I changed it up in response to your concerns. Check the first post for more details.

Nice so far! To work backwards, I think the second half (after that little solo piano thing) is a lot stronger than the first. It sounded a lot fuller and I liked what was going between the strings and the piano. The piano transition was fine, though it felt a little strangely placed to me. I think it sounds more like an intro than a transition. In fact, it might sound cool to start with the piano going into the second part and then move what you have in the beginning to after the second part, essentially flipping what you have. Hopefully that makes sense Happy musicing!

I agree that the second part is stronger than the first, it's sort-of intentional. I tried to make it that way so the song evolves into orchestral riffage. Though it wasn't my intention for it to be unbalanced in that regard. Would you say it is? Anyway, I probably won't start with that section for the same reason. Actually, the reason it sounds like an intro, is because I started with that section and wrote it as an intro, later changing it into a transition.

To Everyone:

Do the new wave piano notes help or hinder the mix? And of course check out the new version!

[OfficialJab]

The new interlude is outstanding.

The bars in the melody between 1:32 and 2:00 are still spaced awkwardly for me. I went back for the first time and listened to the original track, and I'm not sure what it is besides the tempo. Still thinking the last couple notes should echo out more quietly. Even in the original song that spot is a bit strange, with two pairs followed by three with equal spacing. It may just be a peculiarity of mine if no one else brings it up, though.

Still, great improvement in the middle.

[Moot]

Actually, the reason it sounds like an intro, is because I started with that section and wrote it as an intro, later changing it into a transition.

Well that makes sense why I thought that then!

I think with what you have now, the balance between the two sections is good. The additions added to the first section really helped. The transition is a lot better as well, though I still think it could be improved. It sounds a little too percussive to me, like each piano note is smacking me in the face (well, maybe not that bad >_>). Maybe soften the attacks a little bit, or try some other piano samples...? Not entirely sure about that one. A little rubato/humanization might help too, since it's just piano by itself. Contrary to OfficialJab, I actually like what's going on at 1:32-2:00 rhythmically. It's actually one of my favorite parts

[jordanrooben]

Alright, version 3 is now up! This mix is turning out much better than I imagined. Definitively my best one yet! It's far from OCremix quality, but, it's improvement for me. That being said, I can't think of anything left for me to do. So, this mix is going on the side until someone more skilled than me gets a chance to look at it.

[Rozovian]

The strings+piano part towards the end works well, you've picked a good set of sounds for it, although I'd suggest giving the piano a little more reverb and humanization.

The rest of if it pretty hit-and-miss. You start of with some ok strings and pad stuff, but the harp melody just doesn't work. The rising piano things fit in well, ties it to the source well, tho you might be overusing them somewhat.

The idea behind the 1:25 part and transitioning into it like that is great, but it currently doesn't quite work. At 1:21, everything fades as if they just ran out of notes. It doesn't close that part well enough. Tweaking note lengths at that point and perhaps screwing with the expression cc for any instruments that respond to it should remedy the problem. The 1:25 part itself is to soft imo, the rising piano drowns the melody. It's an easy fix, just make the melody a little louder.

1:47 seems to use that same, out-of-tune flute you've used before, but besides that, it sounds ok. It transitions well into and out of the part. I don't think the 2:15 part is the best to transition into, but it works well enough.

The harp at the end is too loud, too stiff, and has too much reverb, but that's a fairly easy fix (two of those are just levels/effects edits). Likewise are the strings chords underneath; they don't quite fit the underlying chords of the harp.

You're making good progress, Jordan, this is much better than your previous work. Don't stop now.

[jordanrooben]

The strings+piano part towards the end works well, you've picked a good set of sounds for it, although I'd suggest giving the piano a little more reverb and humanization.

The rest of if it pretty hit-and-miss. You start of with some ok strings and pad stuff, but the harp melody just doesn't work. The rising piano things fit in well, ties it to the source well, tho you might be overusing them somewhat.

The idea behind the 1:25 part and transitioning into it like that is great, but it currently doesn't quite work. At 1:21, everything fades as if they just ran out of notes. It doesn't close that part well enough. Tweaking note lengths at that point and perhaps screwing with the expression cc for any instruments that respond to it should remedy the problem. The 1:25 part itself is to soft imo, the rising piano drowns the melody. It's an easy fix, just make the melody a little louder.

1:47 seems to use that same, out-of-tune flute you've used before, but besides that, it sounds ok. It transitions well into and out of the part. I don't think the 2:15 part is the best to transition into, but it works well enough.

The harp at the end is too loud, too stiff, and has too much reverb, but that's a fairly easy fix (two of those are just levels/effects edits). Likewise are the strings chords underneath; they don't quite fit the underlying chords of the harp.

You're making good progress, Jordan, this is much better than your previous work. Don't stop now.

Alright, I fixed or at least attempted to fix everything you mention except for humanizing the piano. I don't know how to do it in FL studio, and I'm considering playing it live through my MIDI keyboard. It's something i'll work on a little later. Maybe this shows some improvement on my part, but I heard several of the things you pointed out. I never was quite happy with the harp melody in the intro as well as the harp at the end. I have one concern however: is the backing of the first section too muddy? I'v played with the levels quite a bit, but I can't seem to make it any better. Thanks for the all the feedback. You are awesome!

[Rozovian]

Alright, I fixed or at least attempted to fix everything you mention except for humanizing the piano. I don't know how to do it in FL studio, and I'm considering playing it live through my MIDI keyboard. It's something i'll work on a little later. Maybe this shows some improvement on my part, but I heard several of the things you pointed out. I never was quite happy with the harp melody in the intro as well as the harp at the end. I have one concern however: is the backing of the first section too muddy? I'v played with the levels quite a bit, but I can't seem to make it any better. Thanks for the all the feedback. You are awesome!

Humanizing a piano is way easier than humanizing strings or other sustained instruments, tho it's also more noticeable when it's done badly. What you do is basically just try to think it through as if you're performing - out of every few notes, which do you emphasize most, which least? Raise velocity on the ones you emphasize. Which melodies and parts do you wanna emphasize? Raise the velocity a bit on those. If you can play, play it. If you can get playing into your workflow, you'll work a lot faster. Even if you're not great, you can always go in and manually correct stuff while still keeping the human touch.

Then there's timing, which isn't _as_ important to do, but it helps. If the chords roll into or out of the beat they're on - even if it's only by tiny fractions of a second - it helps. You can also use the sustain pedal cc to add realism, but that's more important in solo piano parts. Not using the sustain pedal means you have more control over note length, which is sometimes necessary.

You took the mixing a little too far, tho. The track now has a bit too bright and overprocessed sound. And yep, the first part (0:22 and on, I'll count the stuff before as just intro) is a bit of a mess. Pick some songs in the style you're doing, and listen to how the instruments are mixed - where and how they fit together. Imitate. If you're not happy with the mixing, turn off EQ and other effects, and mix with just volume, and _then_ bring in EQ to separate tracks that overlap - by in one track removing frequencies that the other overlapping track needs to sound clear. And after that you can add a touch of brightness and clarity with EQ.

If you're starting to hear stuff you're not happy with, it means you're growing production ears. That is one of the most important tools you can have. Keep it up.

[jordanrooben]

Humanizing a piano is way easier than humanizing strings or other sustained instruments, tho it's also more noticeable when it's done badly. What you do is basically just try to think it through as if you're performing - out of every few notes, which do you emphasize most, which least? Raise velocity on the ones you emphasize. Which melodies and parts do you wanna emphasize? Raise the velocity a bit on those. If you can play, play it. If you can get playing into your workflow, you'll work a lot faster. Even if you're not great, you can always go in and manually correct stuff while still keeping the human touch.

Then there's timing, which isn't _as_ important to do, but it helps. If the chords roll into or out of the beat they're on - even if it's only by tiny fractions of a second - it helps. You can also use the sustain pedal cc to add realism, but that's more important in solo piano parts. Not using the sustain pedal means you have more control over note length, which is sometimes necessary.

You took the mixing a little too far, tho. The track now has a bit too bright and overprocessed sound. And yep, the first part (0:22 and on, I'll count the stuff before as just intro) is a bit of a mess. Pick some songs in the style you're doing, and listen to how the instruments are mixed - where and how they fit together. Imitate. If you're not happy with the mixing, turn off EQ and other effects, and mix with just volume, and _then_ bring in EQ to separate tracks that overlap - by in one track removing frequencies that the other overlapping track needs to sound clear. And after that you can add a touch of brightness and clarity with EQ.

If you're starting to hear stuff you're not happy with, it means you're growing production ears. That is one of the most important tools you can have. Keep it up.

I worked on that like you said, but I'm not quite happy with it. Unfortunately, I have no idea what to do. Maybe i'll just need to get more experience. Any advice?

[Rozovian]

I worked on that like you said, but I'm not quite happy with it. Unfortunately, I have no idea what to do. Maybe i'll just need to get more experience. Any advice?

Use your ears. Doing comparisons between your track and _well mixed_ tracks by other ppl in the same style can reveal things in your track you can't hear when you listen to it by itself. Taking a copy of the project and doing a few different versions of the mixing and comparing those to other ppl's tracks could tell you which techniques or methods or mixing philosophies or whatever were the most effective at getting your mixing similar.

It also works for synth sound design, performance, or whatever.

Experience comes from doing stuff. Do stuff. I learned lots in my challenges, I used only synths for Beyond Velocity and my (rejected) FreeSpace 2 mix. BV was lso an attempt to keep the number of instruments low. Eye of the Storm came out of filtering a loop and chopping up the source melody. Dragonfood came form screwing with time signatures. Pick something to challenge yourself with, do that.

Do a track using _only_ presets. Do a track where you only mix with volume and the tools inside the instruments. Do a track that should sound good both normally and in reverse. Do a track where the lead melody is played on the bass. Do a solo piano track - sequence it to sound like a real performance. Do a track with loads of rhythm without using drums or any percussion sounds. Do a track using only drums and percussion. Do a track with only custom synth sounds. Do a track without listening to it until it's finished. The idea iw to give yourself something difficult that'll challenge your understanding of both music and audio tech. Aren't your curious to hear what you'd manage to put together if you didn't listen to what you were doing... at all?

[OfficialJab]

Wow, I haven't heard it since V2, I wouldn't be disappointed in the least to download this off of the front page.

I wouldn't say no to an ethereal/underwater-sounding pad in the intro to get the 'sunken' feeling going right away. Maybe start with a a bubbly submerging sound or something, sounding similar to how you jump into the water in-game? An outro featuring the chime sounds from 1:45 fading out would be a pleasant ending, I think. Or at least having the piano roll echo away. At any rate, as a casual listener, I think it's great.