Videogames and Sexism

[Darangen]

For clarity, sexism is:

Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is defined as prejudice or discrimination based on sex; or behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex. Sexism is a form of discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, with such attitudes being based on beliefs in traditional stereotypes of gender roles. The term sexism is most often used in relation to discrimination against women, in the context of patriarchy.

Sexism involves hatred of or prejudice towards a gender as a whole or the application of gender stereotypes. Sexism is often associated with gender-supremacy arguments.

[LuIzA]

You obviously havent seen this youtuber then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhlv5Aeuo

I still haven't, the link is broken.

[Bleck]

Well, if you make a poll and come up with said result, then that means that a poll is sexist? It says something about the majority of people asked, but never did I say women MUST NOT like/do something because the majority of women don't.

I'm sort of confused about the syntax of this statement so I'm not going to respond to it so that I don't misunderstand you

But why make an unattractive character when they could make them attractive?

the problem is not the presence of attractive characters, it's the definition of 'attractive' within the context of sexualization and male/female perspective

the whole point isn't that 'female characters are too good looking', it's that 'female characters are designed solely to be good looking'

there's nothing wrong with a girl having a pretty face, but if you're arguing that say, the example that Archaon just posted, is not pretty much just objectification of women, then you're just simply wrong

[psychowolf]

I still haven't, the link is broken.

i fixed the link i just noticed myself, youtube puts alot of extra crap at the end i ussually delete off.

[Tensei]

Well, if you make a poll and come up with said result, then that means that a poll is sexist?

It's possible that the implications are the same as with videogames; if a poll shows that women tend to dislike math, don't you think that it's more likely to be caused by a society that insidiously discourages and mocks women who choose to pursue a career in maths? Or do you genuinely believe that there is some evolutionary psychology that dictates that women are just bad at math?

Sexism in gaming? eh there's sexism everywhere, much like racism

Unless we're gonna all become politically correct about every little thing, the best thing to do is ignore it.

Please stop implying that a topic that got 11 pages in a few hours and is still going strong is not a topic worth discussing, because evidently, it is.

[Archaon]

I see no point in making something intentionally unattractive unless the story calls for it.

The story often does call for it! Women who should be buff, given their profession, are not! Women who fight with swords and things and therefore probably shouldn't leave vital areas exposed still wear armour that shows off their cleavage!

Also, just as an example. look at Kratos. That dude's got an ugly mug. Why? Would the story have been affected at all if he'd had a youthful, handsome face? No. They just designed him that way. But when you want to do the same thing for a female character, suddenly you need a "reason" for it, otherwise she should just be generically pretty.

[Bleck]

For clarity, sexism is:

If you're having a difficult time imagining how dictionaries could be made relevant to sexuality, well done on knowing more about sexuality than some real people.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[lazygecko]

There's reasons you don't find as many women playing "hardcore" video games, just as you don't find as many women studying higher level math, or engineering, or female composers/producers/sound technicians, etc.

And like the latter examples, I'm betting the case for video games lies much more with the gender roles we are instilled with from the day we are born. I don't believe there's anything that makes women inherently less interested in any of this, it's all a social construct. If you want to get more women to play the same kind of games we do (ie non facebook/browser ones), you should probably focus your energy on gender equality in real, social life rather than blaming it all on pretty dressed up dolls. If it is really, actually true that most women who would otherwise be interested in video games are actually disgusted by how the characters are portrayed, then I think the problem will solve itself once these people get an interest in game development and establish themselves in the industry.

[LuIzA]

i fixed the link i just noticed myself, youtube puts alot of extra crap at the end i ussually delete off.

Ok, I've watched it. So this girl likes numbers, I never said no woman does, hell, I used to be an engineering student, so yeah, so do I.

It's possible that the implications are the same as with videogames; if a poll shows that women tend to dislike math, don't you think that it's more likely to be caused by a society that insidiously discourages and mocks women who choose to pursue a career in maths? Or do you genuinely believe that there is some evolutionary psychology that dictates that women are just bad at math?

Wait right there, I never said that women are bad at math, or anything like what you said, I used to study engineering myself. And while I never felt any mocking or discouraging for my choice, I do agree that especially that not too long ago society was like that, not nearly as much right now. But as for what a poll such as this says, I never got into the reason for it show said results.

[Archaon]

Sexism in gaming? eh there's sexism everywhere, much like racism

Unless we're gonna all become politically correct about every little thing, the best thing to do is ignore it.

YEAH because that will totally improve the situation oh wait no it will not

there's nothing wrong with a girl having a pretty face, but if you're arguing that say, the example that Archaon just posted, is not pretty much just objectification of women, then you're just simply wrong

And let's bear in mind that this is a MMORPG. A game where you create your own character. Guys, you get the full gamut! You can be a pretty boy or a total badass, you choose! Look at all this cool armour you get! Women, you are tits and ass with a sword or maybe a staff. Want to play as one of the awesome

Too bad, they're male only. Who wants to play a big, bulky woman, right? But don't worry! We designed this race of cute little fairy people with kitty ears,

[Darangen]

The story often does call for it! Women who should be buff, given their profession, are not! Women who fight with swords and things and therefore probably shouldn't leave vital areas exposed still wear armour that shows off their cleavage!

Also, just as an example. look at Kratos. That dude's got an ugly mug. Why? Would the story have been affected at all if he'd had a youthful, handsome face? No. They just designed him that way. But when you want to do the same thing for a female character, suddenly you need a "reason" for it, otherwise she should just be generically pretty.

You do know that women who are strong don't necessarily have huge arms, right? Sure, some do, but not all or many from my knowledge.

Is it realistic to see a lady with twig arms slinging around a great sword? Probably not. But again, this is a fantasy world we're talking about where wearing a necklace gives you +10 strength. A fantasy world where you can get shot with 20 arrows and still be alive and drinking a potion restores you to perfect health in a matter of nanoseconds. A fantasy world where you can jump a distance usually equal, if not greater, to your personal height. Let's face it, there's a huge difference of what is called for in a fantasy world compared to what it would actually require in reality.

Kratos has an ugly mug, sure. He's also ripped, chiseled, and a bad-ass. Would the story be different if he was a pretty-boy? Probably not. I agree with you there. Look at Queen Brahne from FF9, she's pretty hideous.

[Bleck]

You do know that women who are strong don't necessarily have huge arms, right?

you do realize that 'buff' doesn't mean 'huge arms', right

[Tensei]

I have to confess that gameplaywise, Tera Online is just excellent all around so far, but the character design bothers me immensely. At least Amani females are pretty cool!

There's reasons you don't find as many women playing "hardcore" video games, just as you don't find as many women studying higher level math, or engineering, or female composers/producers/sound technicians, etc.

This all paraphrasing, but I've read some accounts from female HoN/DotA players (both very hardcore games that require a lot of vocal communication), and it basically came down to it that even once they got past the whole "Oh, you're a girl?" "You have a cute voice!" stuff (not to mention more insulting comments than that), they would always either be looked down on ("You killed me, not bad for a girl!") or actively mocked for their gender ("Oh, you died? See, this is why girls shouldn't be playing video games!")

The community in those games is very hostile in the first place, but having to deal with comments like that I'm honestly surprised those games even still have female players.

[psychowolf]

YEAH because that will totally improve the situation oh wait no it will not

The true question is.

What WILL improve the situation?

Getting all miffed and on our high horses about it?

Trust me no one will listen to a person who is angry.

If your going to get on your high horse you have to be calm about it.

The only true way to fight it in the industry is either become part of the industry and change it from that side or fight it with your wallet.

So yeah, if something in a game is sexist, ignore the game.

no money means the company has lost out alot of money because of a character being labeled sexist.

[Bleck]

I have to confess that gameplaywise, Tera Online is just excellent all around so far

yeah I'm really excited for an MMORPG that I can actually play and not want to shoot myself in the head out of boredom afterwards

but that is neither here nor there

[lazygecko]

Want to play as one of the awesome

Too bad, they're male only. Who wants to play a big, bulky woman, right? But don't worry! We designed this race of cute little fairy people with kitty ears,

Most non-asian RPGs let you play as a female orc these days. Which I often find myself doing. In WoW they are one of the few female races that actually look like they could kick your ass (but then there was the whole female troll incident where Blizzard caved in to fan pressure and made them non-hunchbacks).

[liquid wind]

Kratos has an ugly mug, sure. He's also ripped, chiseled, and a bad-ass.

The super badass stereotype is also an unrealistic standard to live up to that is very common in the media, and yet this doesn't seem to piss anyone off. Funny how gender roles and expectations are only wrong when they're female...and yet it's only men in this topic that are angry about it

[Archaon]

Is it realistic to see a lady with twig arms slinging around a great sword? Probably not.

It's not an issue of realism. You are the one who just said that characters should only be "unattractive" if there's a story reason for it, which is stupid in itself, but I'm also pointing out that often there is a "story reason" for a female character to not be a supermodel, and yet she still is. I wonder why.

The super badass stereotype is also an unrealistic standard to live up to that is very common in the media, and yet this doesn't seem to piss anyone off.

It's a male power fantasy. The men are designed for men. The women are also designed for men. This is the problem. It is not difficult to grasp.

Funny how gender roles and expectations are only wrong when they're female...and yet it's only men in this topic that are angry about it

You have zero understanding of this issue and should probably stop talking until that changes.

[Darangen]

That doesn't explain why companies should put less attractive females in their games.

Close your eyes and picture a girl. Was she attractive? If so, you're a sexist. Yes, that's a ridiculous argument that isn't true. However, that's what I'm seeing from the arguments in this thread.

[Moomba]

Close your eyes and picture every girl you possibly can. Were they all invariably attractive?

Fixed that for you.

[Tensei]

and yet it's only men in this topic that are angry about it

I don't think anyone is outright angry. To me, this is just an interesting topic that merits discussion, which is why I started the thread in the first place.

Ad hominems aren't needed either.

[Archaon]

That doesn't explain why companies should put less attractive females in their games.

They have no problem doing it for men, so why the double-standard? Why do women have to default to eye-candy when men are allowed to run the gamut?.

Also, it's less about attractiveness and more about sexual objectification. It's not just "female characters are attractive", it's "female characters are attractive and have huge breasts and show off their cleavage and stand with their hips stuck out for no reason and so on and so forth". You can't look at each individual issue in a vacuum here.

[lazygecko]

That depends on what you define as male eye candy. I think the battle-worn, Hollywood-rugged (real war wounds tend not to be as pleasant) male characters we see in games can be seen as attractive.

[Darangen]

That depends on what you define as male eye candy. I think the battle-worn, Hollywood-rugged (real war wounds tend not to be as pleasant) male characters we see in games can be seen as attractive.

This.

Unless you're attracted to males (which is fine) you can't really say what is attractive and isn't attractive when it comes to the male physiology.

And unless you want to say that girls who have breast implants and/or show off their cleavage and/or stand with their hips stuck out are sexist, I don't see your point.

[Bleck]

That depends on what you define as male eye candy. I think the battle-worn, Hollywood-rugged (real war wounds tend not to be as pleasant) male characters we see in games can be seen as attractive.

Unless you're attracted to males (which is fine) you can't really say what is attractive and isn't attractive when it comes to the male physiology.

again, there is a difference between attractive in the 'pleasant to look at' sense and attractive in the 'this is your sexual fantasy' sense

whether or not a man finds men in videogames aesthetically pleasing is irrelevant to whether or not almost every female character needs to have her tits spilling out of her "armor"