Brandon Strader

Tropes vs. Women / #GamerGate Conspiracies

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I'm curious about one thing, concerning the Bros Before Hos issue.

2cpteg6.jpg

A woman came up with the name for the trophy. Not a man trying to sexist, not a man thinking it was clever and then accidentally offending people, but a female producer working on the game. Does this change your feelings about the situation any?

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I'm curious about one thing, concerning the Bros Before Hos issue.

2cpteg6.jpg

A woman came up with the name for the trophy. Not a man trying to sexist, not a man thinking it was clever and then accidentally offending people, but a female producer working on the game. Does this change your feelings about the situation any?

No, and here's why:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_sexism

Women can be sexist and they are not necessarily experts on sexism. I'm personally not terribly offended by the trophy, but by other things in the scene.

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Some of the videos are being removed, so I went ahead and made this. It's labeled so I can be very clear what I'm referring to in the video (also, please excuse my lack of image-making skillz):

http://imgur.com/RVPtYVO

These shots come from this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3L2de3ucLg

I'm sorry but most (if not all) of the shots you posted are really stretching it. Head like an orgasm? Going to mount her? You can find sexism anywhere if you really try to.

Would it be better if the thing went through her chest instead of her lower abdomen? You would be calling it sexist anyway.

It's also a bit funny that some possibly sexist scenes are something to worry about but merciless killing is normal. If we're going to analyze the cultural influence of games, shouldn't we be worried about anything morally wrong in them?

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I'm sorry but most (if not all) of the shots you posted are really stretching it. Head like an orgasm? Going to mount her? You can find sexism anywhere if you really try to.

Would it be better if the thing went through her chest instead of her lower abdomen? You would be calling it sexist anyway.

You can also not find sexism anywhere if you really try to. Ask your shrink if I'm seeing things.

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I think we have a different understanding of the term then. I don't think sexism implicitly refers to very overt, intentionally malicious actions (the terms usually reserved for that are misandry/misogyny). To me, it literally just means treating someone differently based on their gender.

It's a possibility, but here's the thing. To me, sexism is discriminatory by its very definition and nature. It suggests that the one being treated differently is inferior based on their gender. It's not an "oops" moment, like grabbing unsweetened iced-tea instead of sweetened, it's a purposeful action. But these days, the term's getting broader in unwarranted directions IMO, which brings me to...

In that sense, even inconspicuous actions such as holding a door open for a girl can be sexist, though they're probably not particularly harmful by themselves. That's what I meant when I said that sexism is very insidious; everyone has probably done something like that in the past, but it doesn't automatically make them a bad person or anything.

That bolded part right there, is something I've encountered. I held a door open for a women who was walking behind me, and she called me a pig, saying she didn't need a man to hold the door for her. Somehow, my being polite became sexist, even though I hold the door for anyone who's close by when I go in or out one. At that moment, I discovered that the term "sexism" had jumped the proverbial fence. This eventually got me wondering, How can something be sexist, when there's no sexist intent within it?, as I realized that the term was now encompassing some things that had no reason to be included under its banner.

Perhaps what I've written is too black and white a stance to take on it to some. Maybe I'm just not being sensitive enough. But when coupled with the idea of looking into the details of something before calling it sexist (like what I did regarding Mario/Peach), I don't think either of those is an issue for me. And in the case of the "damsel" trope... well, I've already explained my stance on that.

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I.e., you don't have to be a psychoanalyst to interpret forceful penetration through a woman's abdomen with a phallic spike as sexual.

Phallic spike? It's a cone :razz:

You can interpret that way if you want, I'm not saying you can't. I'm just saying it feels forced to me.

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Like others said the video is too repetitive to warrant 23 minutes of length. Anyhow, I've rescued enough women in games for a lifetime. So I wouldn't shed a tear if the trend ceased.

Also, Palpable nailed it. The formula is overused due to lack of imagination. That's why we'll never play an action platformer about a queen in her 50's trying to divorce her husband because he refuses to take a shower.

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Lot of Phallic Spike talk going on now. Aren't all spikes phallic?

Spears, Spikes, Daggers, Bullets, Missiles, Pens, Pencils, Straws, Brooms, You could even call a Christmas Tree phallic if you look at it hard enough. Why do we put Angels on the top of them again?

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What is that suppossed to mean?

Really, the lesson here that I keep forgetting until topics like this re-surface is to remember that you are always wrong and therefore arguing is pointless.

It's best to fall into the muted group. The group that feels they're dominant never shut the hell up and don't stop bombarding people with their opinions on the matter at hand. Opinions which they have convinced themselves are objective truths.

Since you'll never convince them of the contrary anyway, it's best to just sit back and watch them fight among themselves. It's fun.

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Really, the lesson here that I keep forgetting until topics like this re-surface is to remember that you are always wrong and therefore arguing is pointless.

It's best to fall into the muted group. The group that feels they're dominant never shut the hell up and don't stop bombarding people with their opinions on the matter at hand. Opinions which they have convinced themselves are objective truths.

Since you'll never convince them of the contrary anyway, it's best to just sit back and watch them fight among themselves. It's fun.

My shrink would probably agree with that.

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Lot of Phallic Spike talk going on now. Aren't all spikes phallic?

Spears, Spikes, Daggers, Bullets, Missiles, Pens, Pencils, Straws, Brooms, You could even call a Christmas Tree phallic if you look at it hard enough. Why do we put Angels on the top of them again?

"Hard enough" lol

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Really, the lesson here that I keep forgetting until topics like this re-surface is to remember that you are always wrong and therefore arguing is pointless.

It's best to fall into the muted group. The group that feels they're dominant never shut the hell up and don't stop bombarding people with their opinions on the matter at hand. Opinions which they have convinced themselves are objective truths.

Since you'll never convince them of the contrary anyway, it's best to just sit back and watch them fight among themselves. It's fun.

Sweet argument. I could parrot the same thing back at you.

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I haven't played those other games. There are surely other examples! ^_^

Rose arguably rescues the main character Dart twice in Legend of Dragoon, once in the opening sequence, and (arguably) once at sea (although that second time immediately follows Dart trying to rescue her, to be fair.) In fact, she's one of my favorite female characters (see my avatar), because she's far stronger emotionally than any of the men in her game (except maybe Lavitz), and even when she does have vulnerable moments they don't cheapen her as a character, but further emphasize how strong her resolve and personality are. Which is actually a bit weird, considering that she's cast opposite Shana, who's a pretty bad DiD in about 97% of the game.

Also, another strong female character that I'm surprised no one's mentioned (although I might have missed it, tbh) is Naiji, from Aquaria.

And I, too, refused to play that horrible Other M. Once I found out the direction they took her character, my intentions of purchasing the game were instantly gone.

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Like others said the video is too repetitive to warrant 23 minutes of length. Anyhow, I've rescued enough women in games for a lifetime. So I wouldn't shed a tear if the trend ceased.

Also, Palpable nailed it. The formula is overused due to lack of imagination. That's why we'll never play an action platformer about a queen in her 50's trying to divorce her husband because he refuses to take a shower.

Awww, it'd be amazing...

His lawyer has hidden the legal papers necessary to divorce him on the far side of the castle. Of course as she's got a bum hip the stairs are out of window until she can reactivate the stairlift, however her young son's stolen the battery to power his remote control car so you have to chase that down first...

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It's a possibility, but here's the thing. To me, sexism is discriminatory by its very definition and nature. It suggests that the one being treated differently is inferior based on their gender. It's not an "oops" moment, like grabbing unsweetened iced-tea instead of sweetened, it's a purposeful action. But these days, the term's getting broader in unwarranted directions IMO, which brings me to...

That bolded part right there, is something I've encountered. I held a door open for a women who was walking behind me, and she called me a pig, saying she didn't need a man to hold the door for her. Somehow, my being polite became sexist, even though I hold the door for anyone who's close by when I go in or out one. At that moment, I discovered that the term "sexism" had jumped the proverbial fence. This eventually got me wondering, How can something be sexist, when there's no sexist intent within it?, as I realized that the term was now encompassing some things that had no reason to be included under its banner.

Perhaps what I've written is too black and white a stance to take on it to some. Maybe I'm just not being sensitive enough. But when coupled with the idea of looking into the details of something before calling it sexist (like what I did regarding Mario/Peach), I don't think either of those is an issue for me. And in the case of the "damsel" trope... well, I've already explained my stance on that.

I agree that sexism is discriminatory by definition, but I strongly disagree that it always has be intentional. I gave an example earlier of a job interviewer who hires men over equally qualified women. I can't describe this in any other way than sexism: he is rejecting people based on their gender. The problem is that this can, and does happen without the job interviewer even realizing it. So there's no intent, but it's still sexist.

Of course, the lady in your example was wrong. She didn't know that you hold open doors for anyone regardless of gender out of politeness, and jumped to her own conclusions.

You're probably right that sexism is starting to become something of a loaded term due to misuse, and tends to put people on the defensive very quickly (as demonstrated in this thread), but going by the dictionary definition I think it's still accurate to refer to situations such as the job interviewer or the DiD trope as sexist.

Maybe it's easier to think of sexism as a spectrum rather than a binary thing. A coach yelling sexist insults at a female contestant in a fighting game tourney is obviously pretty far up the scale, but I think that (over)use of the DiD trope, though obviously pretty minor on a case by case basis, still counts as well.

Really, the lesson here that I keep forgetting until topics like this re-surface is to remember that you are always wrong and therefore arguing is pointless.

It's best to fall into the muted group. The group that feels they're dominant never shut the hell up and don't stop bombarding people with their opinions on the matter at hand. Opinions which they have convinced themselves are objective truths.

Since you'll never convince them of the contrary anyway, it's best to just sit back and watch them fight among themselves. It's fun.

Ah yes, posting-about-posting metadiscussion, my favorite. Maybe you should hold on to your convictions and actually just sit back and lurk if you're not going to contribute anyway.

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Lot of Phallic Spike talk going on now. Aren't all spikes phallic?

Spears, Spikes, Daggers, Bullets, Missiles, Pens, Pencils, Straws, Brooms, You could even call a Christmas Tree phallic if you look at it hard enough. Why do we put Angels on the top of them again?

we're talking about reading media here. a video game cutscene, like any film or narrative art form, has to make a conscious decision of what it includes in its frame and the position of its figures at any given time. so yes, the staging of the god of war cutscene can - and is likely intended to be - interpreted as sexually suggestive (the revealing clothing, the struggle and submission to the male figure, the position of the bodies, and the way she is ultimately killed with the spike).

christmas trees may have phallic characteristics in shape, but i think you'd have a hard time defending an interpretation of the tradition of placing angels on top of trees as sexual ritual.

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christmas trees may have phallic characteristics in shape, but i think you'd have a hard time defending an interpretation of the tradition of placing angels on top of trees as sexual ritual.

I don't mean to sound like a complete ass but...

I've seen crazier things being discussed here.

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we're talking about reading media here. a video game cutscene, like any film or narrative art form, has to make a conscious decision of what it includes in its frame and the position of its figures at any given time. so yes, the staging of the god of war cutscene can - and is likely intended to be - interpreted as sexually suggestive (the revealing clothing, the struggle and submission to the male figure, the position of the bodies, and the way she is ultimately killed with the spike).

christmas trees may have phallic characteristics in shape, but i think you'd have a hard time defending an interpretation of the tradition of placing angels on top of trees as sexual ritual.

Yeah, the way he killed Hermes is totally rapey too!

See, how hermes crawls away weakly, and then has his legs chopped off! Not because he runs fast, but to objectify him sexually! This argument could be made. Just look at it.

It's also offensive to fish, look how he picks Hermes up by the fin!

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Yeah, the way he killed Hermes is totally rapey too!

See, how hermes crawls away weakly, and then has his legs chopped off! Not because he runs fast, but to objectify him sexually! This argument could be made. Just look at it.

It's also offensive to fish, look how he picks Hermes up by the fin!

You want to show your work there, bud? Explain what sex acts these actions equate to. (Which really isn't entirely ridiculous, btw, given how GoW codes Hermes as a gay man)

EDIT: And right - Hermes has his legs chopped off a an ironic punishment because he's the messenger god. What's "ironic" about a woman being penetrated through the abdomen?

EDIT 2: And knowing you guys, you won't take my word for Hermes' gay representation, so here you go:

Edited by MC Final Sigma

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She better talk about the new tombraider game, its leagues ahead of the old one and is pretty gender-neutral. i found it to be a good game, but knowing her, she's still going to say its sexist...

It's a damn great game.

I'm sure people are going to attack the scene where Roth gives Lara CPR though.

Can't wait for that one.

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