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Well, there's one great advantage to Make Unique; it retains the event edits you do, and you don't have to re-record them, just modify them (unless you want to re-record). I use Make Unique pretty often, and I find it keeps my workflow going.

Yeah, but if FL just implemented copy and paste for automation data like other DAW's, it would fall in with my "copy paste" suggestion. Instead, automation in FL has to be literally the clunkiest system you could possibly design. It's stuck in the pattern, and you can never transfer it anywhere (you have to clone the pattern and zero all the other shit out). This might be fine for electro stuff, but it's awful in orchestral. We have clips, but you can't copy and paste the data in those either; they're self contained entities. If you have a whole lane of data but have 3 repeated sections in it... guess what, you're drawing those all manually. (Or making a clip for it, then cutting out parts of the lane for it... but you don't design software around user workarounds. That's bad UX).

Edited by Neblix

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Yeah, but if FL just implemented copy and paste for automation data like other DAW's, it would fall in with my "copy paste" suggestion. Instead, automation in FL has to be literally the clunkiest system you could possibly design. It's stuck in the pattern, and you can never transfer it anywhere (you have to clone the pattern and zero all the other shit out). This might be fine for electro stuff, but it's awful in orchestral. We have clips, but you can't copy and paste the data in those either; they're self contained entities. If you have a whole lane of data but have 3 repeated sections in it... guess what, you're drawing those all manually. (Or making a clip for it, then cutting out parts of the lane for it... but you don't design software around user workarounds. That's bad UX).

Well, it might not be obvious, but you can copy and paste the automation clip data (FL 11 at least):

1. Left click the upper left of the automation clip (the squiggle next to the name). Click "Channel settings".

2. Click the down arrow on the upper left, then Articulator > Copy/Paste state. C+P the whole thing as it is. There ya go.

You can also reassign one clip to multiple knobs/sliders/etc. (a different method)

Edited by timaeus222

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the pattern blocks, i just like them better. idk, maybe skryp can elaborate. i'd have to work on actually making a list of arguments for WHY i like em better. it's not just laziness on my part, i think.

I've just gotten used to them ever siiiiince... FL3? FL4? Waaay before they even introduced automation and audio clips. So I'd have a bunch of pattern blocks in a project, name them what I want, etc. etc. It does suck going into older files and trying to figure out what it is I was doing if not everything is labelled.

I've since been merging all of my pattern blocks into 2 types, instrumentals and drums, and have been slicing them up into song sections recently. I'm finding that that's an easier way to tweak sections and write transitions better, and it organizes all the random blocks into one. Could probably do this with pattern clips but again, I'm just used to blocks. Not a big fan of change when what you already have works.

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Well, it might not be obvious, but you can copy and paste the automation clip data (FL 11 at least):

1. Left click the upper left of the automation clip (the squiggle next to the name). Click "Channel settings".

2. Click the down arrow on the upper left, then Articulator > Copy/Paste state. C+P the whole thing as it is. There ya go.

You can also reassign one clip to multiple knobs/sliders/etc. (a different method)

Go back and read what I was saying.

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Go back and read what I was saying.

Yeah, I get your frustration, but I don't feel that way about the automation system in FL. Sure, you can't literally highlight points on an automation clip and paste them within the same clip, but I'm okay with that. I'm used to it, and a bunch of the keyboard shortcuts, plus I tend to click around quickly. It would be a nice feature to be able to do that, though, for people who are still getting used to it.

Edited by timaeus222

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...and thus eliminating the dumb "blocky" arrangement habits it pushes you into).

that's the thing, i'm totally past that. i can work with them very quickly, and while you don't have to like my music, you'll have a hard time detecting any blockiness.

and adapting to the newer patterns will mean a lot of work, specifically because i don't like them much to begin with.

my ideal would've been a block environment that takes some visual cues from the new patterns, making them more readily identifiable. i just wish they kept a lot of the rest, even if just as an option.

see, i don't think there's anything mandatory about 'going with the times' here. they decided for something which i found a bit worse, sum total. they also had the courtesy of keeping the old way in the program for a good while. so i'm ok with it.

it won't change my mind. the 2 different pattern styles, they're not an upgrade route where one is better, they're 2 slightly different ways to make music. i get both of them enough to clearly prefer 1. personal choice.

EDIT: i got a better answer on it now. i think i prefer the old patterns BECAUSE i need to create a shitload of patterns fast. i found that a slight nuisance whenever i worked with the new patterns. pattern modification is just lightning fast with the old blocks. "make unique" plays into that.

there may be some shortcuts with the new patterns i haven't found yet. i leave a small window of possibility that i could find a way in the new pattern mode that's just as satisfying for me.

i think the ideal solution is, let IL themselves provide an ongoing download for FL11 (it doesn't have to be front page ofc), and let em make sure that people can register it in 5 years. i respect that they're getting rid of legacy stuff and got their own plans, but the couple people who use the blocks for good reason would most likely appreciate it. FL11 with the reg edit is probably going to be a final version for some. less than 5%, but enough to give 'em an official download.

not doing that would result in a couple people seeing no alternative but warezing FL11, sooner or later. i think the registry stuff would sooner or later result in authentification problems? i'm not sure. the DL should be maintained at either rate.

Edited by Nase

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that's the thing, i'm totally past that. i can work with them very quickly, and while you don't have to like my music, you'll have a hard time detecting any blockiness.

and adapting to the newer patterns will mean a lot of work, specifically because i don't like them much to begin with.

my ideal would've been a block environment that takes some visual cues from the new patterns, making them more readily identifiable. i just wish they kept a lot of the rest, even if just as an option.

see, i don't think there's anything mandatory about 'going with the times' here. they decided for something which i found a bit worse, sum total. they also had the courtesy of keeping the old way in the program for a good while. so i'm ok with it.

it won't change my mind. the 2 different pattern styles, they're not an upgrade route where one is better, they're 2 slightly different ways to make music. i get both of them enough to clearly prefer 1. personal choice.

EDIT: i got a better answer on it now. i think i prefer the old patterns BECAUSE i need to create a shitload of patterns fast. i found that a slight nuisance whenever i worked with the new patterns. pattern modification is just lightning fast with the old blocks. "make unique" plays into that.

there may be some shortcuts with the new patterns i haven't found yet. i leave a small window of possibility that i could find a way in the new pattern mode that's just as satisfying for me.

i think the ideal solution is, let IL themselves provide an ongoing download for FL11 (it doesn't have to be front page ofc), and let em make sure that people can register it in 5 years. i respect that they're getting rid of legacy stuff and got their own plans, but the couple people who use the blocks for good reason would most likely appreciate it. FL11 with the reg edit is probably going to be a final version for some. less than 5%, but enough to give 'em an official download.

not doing that would result in a couple people seeing no alternative but warezing FL11, sooner or later. i think the registry stuff would sooner or later result in authentification problems? i'm not sure. the DL should be maintained at either rate.

This basically amounted to "I like pattern blocks because I'm used to them", which is exactly what I said. :P And in case you haven't noticed, people already pirate any and all versions of FL Studio. They're not losing money by having people not upgrade, since upgrades are free. Business decisions are fueled by financial considerations. Are we gonna waste bandwidth to let people download legitimate copies of our old software just because they don't take the effort to adapt, even though we'd make no more money by keeping that part of the userbase? You should try running that kind of conversation in a board meeting and see how it goes.

[can't copy selected points in automation] but I'm okay with that. I'm used to it,

This is not really a consideration, though. I'm also used to it, that doesn't mean it isn't objectively bad design, it just means you're willing to deal with it, and possibly not even notice it. Unless you provide an argument as to why they should *not* implement it, I don't even understand why we're disagreeing.

Edited by Neblix

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They're not losing money by having people not upgrade, since upgrades are free. Business decisions are fueled by financial considerations. Are we gonna waste bandwidth to let people download legitimate copies of our old software just because they don't take the effort to adapt, even though we'd make no more money by keeping that part of the userbase? You should try running that kind of conversation in a board meeting and see how it goes.

what happened to customer is king? it's a fucking option to download legacy software. this is about artists and their favorite pieces of software. omg neblix.

it wouldn't even waste bandwidth...you either download one or the other.

Edited by Nase

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what happened to customer is king? it's a fucking option to download legacy software. this is about artists and their favorite pieces of software. omg neblix.

You can't say "a company should do X" and then regress the conversation back to being about the artists only. Company decision making isn't driven entirely by artists and customers (see long list of user-suggested FL Changes that have been ignored, also, see their move off of the pattern block system in the first place, which no one asked for). It's made by developers and businessmen. However friendly or relatable they may be, you shouldn't pretend they have the same goals as you, or that they worship user needs. So no, customer is not king.

Your burden lies in convincing the company Image-Line why they should devote web resources to setting up an official legacy support for FL 11 outside of just supporting the existing regcodes. I'll give you a hint, "because 5% of the userbase doesn't like to learn new things" doesn't really cut it. Get it over 40%-ish, maybe it'll start being more viable.

Edited by Neblix

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New FL plugin workflow is really bad, removal of the layer, audio clips, sampler, MIDI outs by default is bad, stability problems are bad. I downloaded Ableton today.

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Get it over 40%-ish, maybe it'll start being more viable.

40%.......no comment.

by that logic, no one would EVER do a mac port.

your understanding of business is sketchy to me.

when it comes to alienating your user base, 0,1% is problematic if it doesn't happen for a good reason.

a new version can be a very good reason. but there is no reason whatsoever for strict either/or logic here. the new version can alienate a few, they get the old version. period. really easy to do.

Edited by Nase

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another thing: FL updates too often anyway.

yeah, lifetime free updates, awesome and all.

but i don't need new gadgets, i just need a stable host. FL works. give it a big update every 3 years but leave me alone otherwise. whenever i update, i have to delete 95% of the program anyway. the core things that make FL really good are present since FL6 or 5, i think. there's no need to put bloat on top of that every other year.

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40%.......no comment.

by that logic, no one would EVER do a mac port.

your understanding of business is sketchy to me.

when it comes to alienating your user base, 0,1% is problematic if it doesn't happen for a good reason.

a new version can be a very good reason. but there is no reason whatsoever for strict either/or logic here. the new version can alienate a few, they get the old version. period. really easy to do.

It's a reasonable estimate. In other words, if 'enough' people care, then it's more practical to do so. But if it's "less than 5%" or so, as you say, it doesn't sound practical, the way you made it sound.

And then you say "0,1% is problematic" (or 0.1% or whatever you meant) when it's unreasonable on the part of Image-Line "alienating" the user base? 0 to 1% is almost nothing---it just made your stance sound less motivated (i.e. it's like you said "if it's less than 5%, people should care; heck, even if it's 0 or 1%, people should care"). Yes, they SHOULD care, but practically, would you expect that they would? About 1%?

That's Neblix's point. Blunt, but there you go.

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I've been trying to use it for the past couple of days.  I can't seem to get any of my VSTs to work anymore.  They are installed a recognized is FL Studio, but when I put them in a channel and play, it doesn't make any sound, but soundfonts and direct wave works fine.

 

I kinda like the interface, but I'm getting frustrated trying to make stuff work instead of making music.  Think I'm going to downgrade back to FL Studio 11.

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It's a reasonable estimate. In other words, if 'enough' people care, then it's more practical to do so. But if it's "less than 5%" or so, as you say, it doesn't sound practical, the way you made it sound.

And then you say "0,1% is problematic" (or 0.1% or whatever you meant) when it's unreasonable on the part of Image-Line "alienating" the user base? 0 to 1% is almost nothing---it just made your stance sound less motivated (i.e. it's like you said "if it's less than 5%, people should care; heck, even if it's 0 or 1%, people should care"). Yes, they SHOULD care, but practically, would you expect that they would? About 1%?

That's Neblix's point. Blunt, but there you go.

meeeeeeh. i'm painting a picture of how it should go and doesn't always, neblix painted a picture of some mcscrooge wallstreet company.

 

sorry, doesn't seem realistic. while FL has a pretty large userbase (making <5% a rather huge thing), the company itself seems rather smallish.

 

sorry man, this isn't like your stupid US elections. smaller percentages can matter.

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and with that, four pages of neblix shouting everyone down is irrelevant.

I find it more rewarding to provide information than to sit back and be a forum commentator, but anyways, zircon didn't say anything I didn't, just that the flaws were enough for him to jump ship for now.

 

meeeeeeh. i'm painting a picture of how it should go and doesn't always, neblix painted a picture of some mcscrooge wallstreet company.

 

sorry, doesn't seem realistic. while FL has a pretty large userbase (making <5% a rather huge thing), the company itself seems rather smallish.

 

sorry man, this isn't like your stupid US elections. smaller percentages can matter.

Not really, no.

 

And you say "without good reason", I think there is plenty good reason to stop supporting a legacy workflow that is underdeveloped in comparison to the new one with about five and a half years of advanced warning. Any and all arguments for said workflow are simply nostalgic or because users refuse to budge. Which would be a worthy consideration... if it was any significant portion of users, but it's insignificant, so it is not. Developers don't have to waste resources and planning to concede to an inconvenient userbase opinion if the opinion is held by "less than 5%". A vast majority of people moved off of pattern blocks. That is a vast majority of people saying "we prefer the new thing", which gives incentive for IL to continue developing the new thing. Cut to five and a half years later, it's too late to turn the clock on removing pattern blocks. Whether pattern blocks are *actually* inferior is irrelevant.

Of course, that was a figure *you* gave us, so if it was found out that the percentage was higher, then what I'm saying applies less. Additionally, if they *do* support the legacy downloads, everything I am saying still holds as business logic; IL in particular are simply being extremely generous.

 

40%.......no comment.

by that logic, no one would EVER do a mac port.

your understanding of business is sketchy to me.

Your understanding of software development is sketchy to me. Making a mac port has nothing to do with conceding to userbase, it's about tapping into an untouched part of the market. Any DAW developer would be stupid to not consider Macs, which is the predominant music production platform in the industry (both in industry academics and in actual studios). And like... no duh, 0% of the userbase is the new market if your product is currently incompatible with that market's computers, yeah?

 

But like, pattern block users isn't a market. It literally isn't, because all the people who used pattern blocks bought FL Studio at one point (allowing them to never have to buy it again) or pirated it (pirate users are not really a market since they're likely to continue pirating). That's why retaining blocks or supporting legacy software is an argument of conceding to your userbase, not tapping into a new market. In other words, I'm saying your Mac port example is irrelevant. As for why they shouldn't concede to the userbase, see my explanation two paragraphs ago.

 

As for FL updates too often: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Release_early,_release_often

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neblix, i'm bored of this. this is also about support and being nice and all, not strictly market.

 

i will not debate your lengthy sophistry. i made my points, you made yours. yours aren't alignable with my reality, sorry. i can't help but think that you need to keep talking in order to not lose. basically the same thing i see with u and timaeus all. the. fucking. time. no thanks.

 

agree to disagree?

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neblix, i'm bored of this. this is also about support and being nice and all, not strictly market.

 

i will not debate your lengthy sophistry. i made my points, you made yours. yours aren't alignable with my reality, sorry. i can't help but think that you need to keep talking in order to not lose. basically the same thing i see with u and timaeus all. the. fucking. time. no thanks.

 

agree to disagree?

I'm more at a loss as to why this suddenly turned personal, but all right.

 

In any event, this is the FL Studio 12 thread, so a discussion like the future direction that FL Studio or Image-Line is going in is completely on-topic, so I see no compulsion to end the conversation. I am not trying to "win" anything, and that's very immature of you to make something about "winning" and "losing". Conversations aren't competitions, they're simply discourse.

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I've been trying to use it for the past couple of days.  I can't seem to get any of my VSTs to work anymore.  They are installed a recognized is FL Studio, but when I put them in a channel and play, it doesn't make any sound, but soundfonts and direct wave works fine.

 

I kinda like the interface, but I'm getting frustrated trying to make stuff work instead of making music.  Think I'm going to downgrade back to FL Studio 11.

 

Yeah, I've been recommending people to stick with 11 unless there's something they want from 12 like the new mixer. The new FL got a lot of new things right but messed up a lot of the old stuff. What VST's are you using that aren't working?

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Sounds like my strategy of waiting until they release FL 12.01 is a good one.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if gol plans to fix nothing, because usually (read: always) he thinks he's right.

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The full versions of Sytrus and Maximus that come with 12 are retroactively licensed for 11 as well, so it's worth installing for that if anything.

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After reading all of the replies I have to say that I'm on the same boat as Neblix.

 

I'm really curious why so many people are jumping ship, when it sounds like they simply tried new methods that may or may not work for some people. If it doesn't stick with 11. If it does go to 12. That's part of the beauty of FL Studio's pricing anyways: one time fee, do what you like.

 

So far the changes I've heard don't seem to justify such a harsh reaction. I think it's just proving that point I learned long ago that almost any change will be quickly met with backlash, until people get over it for whatever reason. Like when Jon left Game Grumps and now Danny is the second host. Everybody complained, even me, but now no one can imagine Game Grumps without Danny.

 

Oh! Or like when they change Doctors in Doctor Who.

 

I'm also with Neblix in being baffled by why this is getting so personal for a lot of people. I really just want everyone to chill out and discuss effectively why they do or don't like FL Studio 12. That's why I came in the first place.

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