OCR04283 - *YES* Golden Sun "Fire and Flames"

[Gario]

Hello Judges!

 

Artists: Chernabogue, Furilas (bass), HeavenWraith (guitars), CyrilTheWolf (vocals)

Original track: Satutos Battle by Motoi Sakuraba

Comments: This is a cover I started years ago for a Golden Sun project that was (unfortunately) abandonned. I liked the concept of that track so much I couldn't let this one go away unfinished. So after a long time, here it is! Big thanks to all who contributed to create this epic track that should melt a few faces!

 

LINK to remix: 

 

Cheers!

 

[Liontamer]

It's so cool that when I heard the source tune's forceful melody, I immediately thought "Oh yeah, this has Cyril written all over it." Totally gels with his vocal style.

So when the vocals kicked in at :23, I thought the organ line behind it was really anemic/flat and dragged down the energy. Not a dealbreaker issue in light of the overall musicianship, but something that could be refined.

Not sure what's going on with the vocal chorusing from :47-1:15, as the timing was slightly behind until :59. Good delivery and performances there otherwise.

Again, the organ line was weak, as well as simplistic & droning, with those whole notes from 2:06-2:53; that part's easily the biggest letdown of the piece and felt lazy compared to everything else. If anything, the change in the rhythm of that line compared to the source wasn't an improvement.

Some smaller issues, but the overall arrangement and presentation were excellent. It took me a few listens to wrap my head around the choruses, because they don't initially sound melodious, but after comparing with the source tune and also getting used to the delivery, I understood the way it was arranged. 

HeavenWraith's guitar work was excellent as well, by the way. Solid mixing for the most part, even though I thought the organ line was "eh". Otherwise the rest of the part-writing was energetic and well-written, and I could make out the parts easily. People will hate on the metal, but I'm on board.

YES

[Sir_NutS]

This is pretty dope.  The soloing is actually pretty insane here, with the adaptation to power metal being on point, and the original melodies translated perfectly to vocal lines.  The guitar performances are excellent, and the vocals are great.  There are some spotty places for the vocals but some mind-melting ones as well;  highlights for me are the falsetto at 1:45 and the rise at 1:59, that's some Halford shit right there.

The production quality varies between sections but it's overall pretty good.  I feel like in the first part the band fades a bit too much into the background behind the vocals, but nothing distracting.  This is great and we should share it on the front page ASAP.

YES

[MindWanderer]

Definitely a face-melter!  Cyril and HeavenWraith deliver exactly what you'd expect.  I'm not crazy about the off-key vocals, and I sat on this vote for a while thinking about them, but for the style they're not inappropriate.

The bigger issue is source usage.  Rexy asked Chernabogue for a source breakdown, and as you can see, there are several sections flagged as "loosely" or "very loosely" based on the source material.  And that's putting it mildly.  Even the "loosely based" ones come across as more "inspired by" to me.  The connections are tenuous at best, and even with the breakdown I have a hard time hearing them.  83 seconds of it are obvious.  The solo at 02:06-02:56 is my biggest concern; it starts off with the source material, and then goes noodling off into unrecognizable territory.  Even if I count half of it--which I feel is very generous--that's still only 47.8% of the arrangement.

Even though this is great from a musical perspective, and I hate to turn it down, I can't for the life of me hear enough of the source material in this to count as "dominant," even knowing what to listen for where.

NO (resubmit)

[Rexy]

This track sounds amazing!  The live musicians are all clean and mixed well, Cyril's raw vocal power is perfect for this setup, and a lot of the writing is very energetic.  Taking this fight theme into power metal is an idea I didn't think we deserve, but it's a near-seamless production.  However, I too wasn't thrilled about the organ tone either.  Thanks to its flat sound, it just couldn't keep up energy-wise with the rest of the instrumentation.  With everything else going on, I can let this issue slide.

The arrangement wasn't a straightforward assessment, though.  As powerful as the track was, I found it challenging to timestamp it - to the point that I asked Chernabogue directly.  Here is what I got back.

Quote

00:06-00:18 (intro) = based on SB (00:02-00:25)  
00:18-00:23 (transition) = original, very loosely based on SB

00:23-00:47 (verse) = loosely based on SB (00:33-00:45)
00:48-01:00 (bridge) = based on SB (00:25-00:33)
01:00-01:12 (chorus) = based on SB (00:02-00:25)
01:12-01:24 (transition) = original, very loosely based on SB

01:24-01:36 (verse) = loosely based on SB (00:33-00:45)
01:36-01:48 (bridge) = based on SB (00:25-00:33)
01:48-02:00 (chorus) = based on SB (00:02-00:25)
02:00-02:05 (transition) = original

02:06-02:56 (solo) = rhythmic part based on SB (00:45-01:04) 
02:56-03:12 (solo end) = original

03:12-03:23 (bridge) = based on SB (00:25-00:33)
03:24-03:36 (chorus) = based on SB (00:02-00:25)

03:36-03:40 (outro) = original

Before asking, I was able to pick out the intro, bridges and choruses.  But right off the bat, the verses don't sound like their equivalent section in the source in melody, and I even tried double-checking the lower harmony but with no luck.  Likewise, the transitions at 0:18 and 1:12 have no melodic content to identify with immediately.

There is good news!  I can accept HeavenWraith's guitar solo at 2:06 based on this factor - Furilas's bass adapting the D section's melody and rhythms straight.  That part is already a bright idea itself - a 5/8 sequence for the bass and the drums, working as a polyrhythm alongside the rest of the instruments performing in 6/8.  When I realized what was going on here, that just added a significant amount of time to my previous estimate.

By understanding Chernabogue's notes, I feel more enlightened by his intentions - and with the spotty verses and transitions aside, I detected 60% source use.  Combined with the framework and solo sequence, I felt surprised with the treatment given, and it's got a surprisingly intelligent undertone despite the balls-to-the-wall power metal approach.

So yeah, that's my reasoning for accepting - great arrangement, high production values, and fantastic performances.  Alex and the team did themselves proud!

YES

Edited August 1, 2019 by Rexy

[prophetik music]

i'm going to sit on this one for a minute.

on one hand, you've got some incredible performances - the vocal slide at 2:00 is fantastic, cyril brings the pain on some real difficult lines, and there's some really great solos in the lead guitar that i can't get enough. on the other hand, there are so many problems. the vocal timing at 0:47 is more than distracting, there's no verb on the lead guitar at all so it sounds totally separate in the mix from the rest of the ensemble, the vocals have a ton of vowels and no consonants so they're very difficult to understand, the backing organ/drums/bass are so much quieter than the vocals and lead guitar to the point that you can barely hear them sometimes...i love metal and want to like this, but it just doesn't sound done to me.

edit: ultimately i don't think that this is a cohesive enough package. there's several specific things that are awesome here but they just don't balance out the issues i mentioned with mastering and level imbalance. i can't pass this in its current state. it feels like a first pass and not a finished version.

 

 

NO

Edited August 26, 2019 by prophetik music

[DragonAvenger]

This took a few listens while comparing to the original to hear some of the connections you sent to Rexy, and I do think that some of them are pretty tenuous. That being said, I do think this is overall recognizable to those that are familiar with the source. 

There isn't much I can mention about the production that hasn't already been said, but I will definitely agree about the timing in the :47 section. There's also the section at 3:18 where you are going for a multi-voice chorus, but the timing inconsistencies feel a little too wide even for the illusion of multiple singers. I'm not sure if that is something that would have to be re-recorded or if the timing could be adjusted on the parts as-is. 

Man, though, when the vocals are on, they are ON. Love the rise at 2:00! The guitar solo and overall performance is also very fun.

I think this is really close, but just a little too far off to pass where it stands. Love to hear some or all of these issues addressed.

NO (resubmit)

 

[Jivemaster]

A good slice of metal/rock-opera (or whatever the genre is :P). The organ shortly after the intro is indeed weak, although I took it as intentionally cheesy. The timing change at 1:10 felt ok. The timing change at 2:00 and the solos that follow were quite interesting, appreciated the change in panning, gave the effect both leads were talking to each other. Mixing is decent enough (kick being audible is a good test), and there’s a decent level of clarity and attention to detail throughout. Vocals aren’t always on point but they crossed the zone enough and were passionately executed. Solid job team.

YES

[Emunator]

I've been sitting on this one for a long time. I don't really have a lot to say because I'm not really a fan of this style on a personal level, but the execution is solid enough in my book and is certainly bolstered by the ambition of the arrangement as a whole. Cyril and HeavenWraith both gave spirited performances that carry the track in spite of the technical issues that have been covered, and the mixing is honestly pretty good overall too! The main issues I see are timing-related and some inconsistent reverb levels, but none of that sinks the overall product for me. I'm happy to sign off on this in its current form.

YES

[Gario]

Well, this is an interesting approach, and the arrangement certainly compliments the transformation to verse/chorus type arrangement. The metal balance doesn't quite have enough bass in the mix (especially those kicks - they really don't pop enough), and save the guitars there doesn't seem to be enough spread in the mix, but otherwise the production sounds fairly decent. The arrangement's got some good solos and some poppin' vocals, and it honestly doesn't overstay it's welcome - it's just the right length. I could nitpick the tuning of the vocals a bit, but I think it goes with the Iron Maiden style that Cyrus is going for to have the tuning be more raw so I don't mind it as much.

I have to thank Rexy for the timestamp layout, too - that did help me in the trickier parts to see what I was looking for. To my ears it sounds like give or take a few sections it checks out on that front fairly alright, as well.

I think it could use some improvements in the spread and bass balance, but I don't think that's quite enough to take this one under. Nice work, y'all!

YES

Edited April 16, 2021 by Gario

[DarkeSword]

Vocal timing and intonation is throwing me off. The track rocks out but the production feels weird; I think Brad and Deia highlighted all of the issues I have with this track. A good effort but not quite there. NO (resub)

[Chimpazilla]

Interesting track!  The guitar work is excellent, and the organ is giving me some Deep Purple vibes, although I agree with Larry that the whole-note emphasis in the organ line is disappointing.  The vocals are well performed and entertaining.  Thanks to Rexy for the source breakdown.  I don't disagree with many of the production crits others have mentioned, but I don't find anything dealbreaker-worthy in the production.  Feels like a solid, enjoyable track to me.  Let's get it posted!

YES