Starcraft 2

[Conan The Politician]

people latch onto the concept of cheese because their egos depend on it. to be blunt (i don't understand why everybody is sidestepping the issue), losing to mass infestors is simply getting badly humiliated, nothing more, and to call it anything else requires an incredible amount of self-delusion. stop externalizing your losses, stop calling things cheese, and you'll find yourself improving faster.

As flamatory as this statement may be, it's definitely all about your attitude towards styles of play considered 'cheesy'. If you're going to keep playing as if people shouldn't/wouldn't play against 'cheese', you're not only going to lose more, but you're probably going to become frustrated.

[Arcana]

I think it's safe to say that any strategy that results in you losing a game and ragequitting is considered cheese?

[Souliarc]

As flamatory as this statement may be, it's definitely all about your attitude towards styles of play considered 'cheesy'. If you're going to keep playing as if people shouldn't/wouldn't play against 'cheese', you're not only going to lose more, but you're probably going to become frustrated.

Yeah... somebody's got a bad case of judging people too quickly.

It seems like you created your own issue, moonpie, because there was no issue beforehand, only discussion. But congrats on being so bold and not sidestepping your issue. You also say that losing to mass infestors is just being badly humiliated, but I see it as a learning experience. Not everything is meant to be in bad taste, such as humiliation.

I have NO problem with cheese and I already admitted I wasn't sure what the definition was, which is why me and others were intelligently discussing it One thing I am sure about though is that cheese keeps you on your toes and responding to it (namely scouting) is proof that knowledge is power.

[Tensei]

I would define cheesy strategies as pretty much any strategy whose success is mostly, if not completely dependent on luck/poor scouting or just plain ol' micro. This would INCLUDE any form of fast teching like Void Rays, Infestors etc.

It also generally requires very little skill aside from micro, which is my problem with it. I never cheese, because first of all, it would hardly help me improve my game, it would just inflate my win ratio and probably put me in leagues where I can't really hold my own. And at a certain skill level, people will be able to scout and effectively counter any cheesy strategies, so then you're suddenly stuck in platinum league with no real skills to show for it.

HOWEVER it's still completely viable if you're just playing to win above all else. I don't have an issue with other people cheesing, I just don't like doing it myself.

Also, 1/1/1 isn't cheese lol. If you can't scout a terran for some reason you can ASSUME he's 1/1/1ing because it's the de facto standard terran build. Not to mention that it's purpose is usually more to put terran comfortably into the midgame rather than all-inning.

[vega12]

The 1/1/1 build is still popular I think, but lately when I play against Terran I tend to almost always encounter an marine marauder timing push. And very often, I end up losing to it . I am trying to see if I can get away with zero or no sentries in my games, because they are so gas heavy that they really delay other tech. Of course if I got 2 or 3 sentries I could just forcefield my ramp to cut their MM force in two and defend like that, and I might have to end up doing that, but I still want to try doing it sentry-less.

Also, I've seen a lot of Terran players when playing against Zerg to favor reaper openings now. They allow the Terran player to put pressure on, and they save up enough minerals to get a relatively quick expansion that the Zerg can't attack because of the reaper pressure. Believe it or not, a 5 rax reaper opening was used to great effect in the recent IEM finals, so the 1/1/1 build in TvP and TvZ is still used and totally a strong build, but lately from my experience the Terran players seem to be favoring more aggressive openings.

[Scrobble]

the best thing in the galaxy is the feeling you get after someone 6 pools you, you hold off their first set of lings, and then have 3 or 4 zealots at their front door.

Bonus points if they call you a faggot before they ragequit.

also: Use the irc channel! i know nobody's in there, but if people start idling, it will pick up steam.

[Conan The Politician]

the best thing in the galaxy is the feeling you get after someone 6 pools you, you hold off their first set of lings, and then have 3 or 4 zealots at their front door.

Bonus points if they call you a faggot before they ragequit.

also: Use the irc channel! i know nobody's in there, but if people start idling, it will pick up steam.

Will the channel show up in ETG if it's got no one in it? Otherwise I'll set myself up in there during the day, mind you I'll be afkish.

[vega12]

the best thing in the galaxy is the feeling you get after someone 6 pools you, you hold off their first set of lings, and then have 3 or 4 zealots at their front door.

Bonus points if they call you a faggot before they ragequit.

also: Use the irc channel! i know nobody's in there, but if people start idling, it will pick up steam.

One thing people don't seem to realize now is that workers in SC2 are much better at fending off lings than they were in BW. A handful of probes supplementing even 1 zealot makes very early ling harass weak. The only thing it usually accomplishes is takes away a bit of mining time. Of course, if they target fire probes you have to be ready to micro the targeted probe away, because that could hurt. Of course, I think that was just like 10 pool or something I faced, and 6 pool is a little different. But still, probes are tough

Oh yeah, and after pushing out with zealots and taking down their expansion, I then pulled back, expanded myself, and came back with an even more overwhelming force for the win. It's easy to throw away an advantage pushing too hard, so after I get a lead, I tend to pull back, macro up, and play safe until I can turn the small advantage into a big one.

[WindStrike]

New kill count for mission "In Utter Darkness" - 2997 enemies killed, Hard difficulty

Died when the corruptors started massing in.

[Dhsu]

the best thing in the galaxy is the feeling you get after someone 6 pools you, you hold off their first set of lings, and then have 3 or 4 zealots at their front door.

Bonus points if they call you a faggot before they ragequit.

also: Use the irc channel! i know nobody's in there, but if people start idling, it will pick up steam.

Is #clanocr still around?

[Arcana]

One thing people don't seem to realize now is that workers in SC2 are much better at fending off lings than they were in BW. A handful of probes supplementing even 1 zealot makes very early ling harass weak. The only thing it usually accomplishes is takes away a bit of mining time. Of course, if they target fire probes you have to be ready to micro the targeted probe away, because that could hurt. Of course, I think that was just like 10 pool or something I faced, and 6 pool is a little different. But still, probes are tough

I faced a 6-pool last night actually. Fortunately I scouted him with my 10th drone and noticed early on (I was doing a standard 13-pool opening).

He rushed me with 4 zerglings and I used my drones to fight him off. My spawning pool wasn't even done when he first attacked and by the time his zerglings got to my base I had only started to make my first zerglings. But, by the time my first two zerglings came out all except 1 zergling was dead; my queen appeared shortly after.

Then I basically kept on rushing him with handfuls of zerglings and roaches until he died. Since he was so committed to 6-pool he couldn't expand, I just parked all of my forces inside his ramp.

[Conan The Politician]

I faced a 6-pool last night actually. Fortunately I scouted him with my 10th drone and noticed early on (I was doing a standard 13-pool opening).

He rushed me with 4 zerglings and I used my drones to fight him off. My spawning pool wasn't even done when he first attacked and by the time his zerglings got to my base I had only started to make my first zerglings. But, by the time my first two zerglings came out all except 1 zergling was dead; my queen appeared shortly after.

Then I basically kept on rushing him with handfuls of zerglings and roaches until he died. Since he was so committed to 6-pool he couldn't expand, I just parked all of my forces inside his ramp.

Considering that zerglings do less damage in comparison to their original counterparts in comparison to everything else, every unit has an easier time dealing with zerglings. Seriously though, their attack speed has been slowed quite a bit.

[Scrobble]

Is #clanocr still around?

not that i know of, but people are idling and sometimes talking in #ocrsc

[Souliarc]

So just realized Terran's music reminds me of "Firefly".

This makes me happy.

[vega12]

Considering that zerglings do less damage in comparison to their original counterparts in comparison to everything else, every unit has an easier time dealing with zerglings. Seriously though, their attack speed has been slowed quite a bit.

Cracklings (adrenal gland upgraded zerglings) attack considerably slower than their BW counterparts, but normal lings have comparable attack rates. But one difference is that in SC2 there is more unit clumping, so lings can't get inside a group of, for example, infantry, to maximize damage output like they could before. This unit clumping also means that lings die to splash damage much worse than in BW. In BW, enough lings could run in, surround tanks, and take them out, but in SC2 the lings all evaporate to one round of tank shots. The next patch apparently is going to be changing siege mode damage from flat 50 damage, to 35 (+15 armored), so units like zealots and zerglings might fare better than they do now.

[friendlyHunter]

Nice link! All those changes make sense to me, but I've only seen Battlecruisers in one game (the game where I saw a clump of them, pumped out vikings, and outranged & destroyed the BCs easily before they could get near my base). Are they actually good against, erm, races that don't have Vikings? Or is Blizzard balancing it for team games and lower leagues as well? I need to do SOMETHING to improve my Terran late game, I feel I lack good air-to-ground (i.e. anti-ground that doesn't melt to seige tanks and marauders), and Banshees have yet to work well for me somehow... I liked BCs in Broodwar... might as well give it a shot!

Also looking forward to the tank change very much... I hate how entire armies of Marines/Hydras/Zealots tend die before I even SEE the tanks (or, die from a single round of tanks shooting up a cliff because of a scan).

And there goes my ridiculous Zealot rush strategy. That did need a nerf

[Souliarc]

Are they actually good against, erm, races that don't have Vikings?

Corruptors rip BC's to shreds.

[vega12]

Corruptors rip BC's to shreds.

While yes, cost for cost Corruptors beat BCs, that doesn't always make them a good choice against them. Corruptors can't attack ground, so putting too much money into Corruptors can cripple your ground army. If you are going Brood Lords, it can be justified, but that is an if. So if you're building Corruptors to combat BCs, you have to be very careful to not over-invest.

In general though, BCs have a relatively weak air attack (compared to ground) so Terrans can use Vikings, which serve the additional purposes of mobile scouting and giving sight range to siege tanks, and Protoss I think can go Void Ray, but I'd have to test that to make sure. If you already have templar tech, feedbacking the BCs can do some good damage to soften them up. But make sure you use the templar beyond just the feedback, as 150 gas for on the order of 200 damage can be quite the investment. Thankfully, storm works wonders against a bio ball. And if archons weren't slowed by marauders, they'd be good against the bio ball too.

[Tinus]

From what I hear Corruptors are also the best counter against Colossi.

[Souliarc]

While yes, cost for cost Corruptors beat BCs, that doesn't always make them a good choice against them. Corruptors can't attack ground, so putting too much money into Corruptors can cripple your ground army. If you are going Brood Lords, it can be justified, but that is an if. So if you're building Corruptors to combat BCs, you have to be very careful to not over-invest.

In general though, BCs have a relatively weak air attack (compared to ground) so Terrans can use Vikings, which serve the additional purposes of mobile scouting and giving sight range to siege tanks, and Protoss I think can go Void Ray, but I'd have to test that to make sure. If you already have templar tech, feedbacking the BCs can do some good damage to soften them up. But make sure you use the templar beyond just the feedback, as 150 gas for on the order of 200 damage can be quite the investment. Thankfully, storm works wonders against a bio ball. And if archons weren't slowed by marauders, they'd be good against the bio ball too.

Not gonna lie, I've been beaten recently by not building up my ground attack forces and having a lot corruptors haha Too be honest though... it was a 3v3 and one of our guys dropped out (connection problem) way early and we had taken one guy but didn't completely destroy him (forgot to) and HE came back with ground forces. Otherwise we would have had them. It was real stressful.

It's always about balance. Using corruptors when it is necessary, but they definitely do provide quite the counter to BC's. Definitely not THE best decision every time (just like with other units). The ability to go anti-ground with your corruptors into brood lord's provides a lot of flexibility though.

[Scrobble]

From what I hear Corruptors are also the best counter against Colossi.

it's incredibly amazingly ridiculously important to not get stuck on the concept or even the word 'counter'.

obviously something that can't shoot upwards will be beat by an air unit, but battles don't take place in a vacuum, and thinking about 'counters' will lead you to say "oh i see he has x, and y 'counters' it so i should make y" but that's not super useful when you really needed a good mix of units to start with

[BardicKnowledge]

imo Corruptors aren't especially useful unless you plan to get Brood Lords...but I don't play a lot of zerg

[miyako]

yes corruptors counter colossus

[vega12]

it's incredibly amazingly ridiculously important to not get stuck on the concept or even the word 'counter'.

obviously something that can't shoot upwards will be beat by an air unit, but battles don't take place in a vacuum, and thinking about 'counters' will lead you to say "oh i see he has x, and y 'counters' it so i should make y" but that's not super useful when you really needed a good mix of units to start with

QFT

Not only do battles not take place in a vacuum, but people tend to forget that in order to get a unit, you must invest both time and resources into the tech for it. Time and money you might not be able to invest in it for other more pressing reasons. It's not as simple as, see x, build y. Sure, if you get into a battle, say PvT and they have a big bio ball you might go, "wow, a psi storm right now would be great!". And yeah, right now any unit would be great. The point is　you only have so much you can do at a given time, and part of the strategy comes from deciding what you absolutely need now, and what you would just like to have. So yeah, be careful about getting stuck in the 'counter' mentality.

That being said, knowledge about which units are, I guess, strong against others can guide your decisions and/or unit compositions in this way. It's just important to realize that for every unit you want to make, there is usually a heavy gas and time investment required that can leave you vulnerable. Colossus might rock in PvP, but getting the Robo Bay, Robo Support Bay, range upgrade, and a single Colossus costs 700 gas. That's a lot of gas! And a lot of time to wait on the bay, support bay, then the Colossus. Sure, you are probably going to get observers anyway, so the first 100 gas can be written off, but the rest is a heavy cost. And it might turn out that you can cut the Colossus from your tech for the moment, getting instead a bigger army, and push to do damage now, instead of waiting for Colossus tech to finish. It might even give you the map control and army dominance to expand. Whether or not this strategy is viable is a question that would have to be answered through experience, but it's a good example of the sheer cost can it take to get something. (could you tell that I main Protoss??)

[Tinus]

obviously something that can't shoot upwards will be beat by an air unit

It's a little more complicated than that obviously. One-on-one a mutalisk would defeat a colossus just like a corruptor will, but corruptors DEVESTATE them so much faster. Especially if you have a ground-heavy army and the protoss opponent has some colossi among its other army units, you're going to want to get rid of the colossi as quickly as you can and corruptors are your best bet in that situation.

thinking about 'counters' will lead you to say "oh i see he has x, and y 'counters' it so i should make y" but that's not super useful when you really needed a good mix of units to start with

Well, sure. But on the other hand in most games you don't have time to get all different types of units, so you're going to have to make choices. Those choices had better be influenced by what your opponent is doing.