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DarkeSword

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

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I didn't intend to imply FPS games were simple or lacked diversity. The focus is still the same though. Combat. It's all about you VS the other guy. It may mean a shoot out, or it may involve tactics and strategy. It may be frantic shooting and strafing or it may mean careful positioning and sniping. But it's still combat focused. That's what you paid your entrance fee for. Modern games are certainly more genre agnostic and harder to fit into neat categories than past games. Modern FPS games may incorporate RPG or Adventure elements...but that just means they're veering into Metroid territory, not the other way around.

I agree in spirit, but not how that is put. Adventure gaming was a PC staple (in fact, adventure games basically started on the PC and it's only fairly recently when they were put to use by console gaming franchises) and even in the earliest FPS games like Unreal and Quake, the suspense of turning the dark corner and literally venturing out into the creepy dungeons and mazes of the levels was crucial. The shooting part was almost secondary if you even bother taking in the scenery beyond speeding through the levels. Metroid games simply have their own way, but FPS games have had a lot of focus on the adventure aspect, though not as heavily as Metroid games might.

Now, I'll admit I only have passing familiarity with the FPS genre, watching a lot more than playing. But in your examples, what are the elements that make those environments stars? In Metroid, your biggest opponent is the environment. Most of your abilities, weapons and tools are used to maneuver through it, once you've figured out how. This is a basic adventure game element and has been present in Metroid from the beginning. Again, its presence in an FPS means the FPS has taken on Adventure (see Metroid) like elements.

Games like Metroid Prime never had a wide open space to do whatever missions you want to, nor do you literally have to traverse and fight through a literal jungle with all its hidden nooks and crannies to get through to the next crucial area. Even Rapture, though somewhat fairly straightforward in mission structure, it's all about the atmosphere and the way enemies interact with one another to create the sense of adventure. And with something like Thief, the adventure aspect is entirely hinged upon the best vantagepoint to snipe an enemy from then hide from view. I simply don't think it's as simple as 'taking on adventure' elements. Metroid always has been a mix of traditional action and adventure to me. You get power ups, you get bosses, you get the crucial upgrade to be able to move more freely, etc. The Prime games as I see it, is a combination of traditional Metroid and a bit of tactical FPS style games. Though when it comes down to actual tactics in a battle, FPS games have excelled at that for more than a decade. I think Prime series is a combination of it all. Not a total isolation from them.

You must keep enlightened company. An average trip around an average message board shows me as much ignorance as education. The fact that people want Metroid to gain a multiplayer focus and take on Halo head to head leads me to conclude some gamers are focusing on elements in opposition to what makes a Metroid game a Metroid game.

Blame Retro for venturing that path then. With not one but two games with multiplayer modes that is basically tacked on. Though Hunters was pretty good, it never felt like a traditional Metroid.

The purpose of creating a genre is to be descriptive. If you have a unique experience you don't lump it together with games that are superficially related just because you only have one example of it. That doesn't even make sense.

You answered your own question. It's all superficial. If you want to know about a game, play them and read about them. That's the problem I see with your argument actually. You're clumping FPS games into the same kind of ignorance that people have when it comes down to separating them. A Duke Nukem is not the same as FarCry or Ghost Recon or Undying or Marathon and etc. Even amongst FPS games, there are differences that makes them stand out. FPS is just a gaming convention and the format. That label hardly describes the games themselves fairly or precisely enough. This argument itself proves that.

Regardless, Metroid is an Adventure series. The fact that the Prime Trilogy uses a First Person Perspective is trivial, but that's what people get hung up on. I'd drop the FP altogether and just call them Adventure games. Again, you can't use the series' title as a genre descriptor because that assumes everyone knows what it means to be a Metroid game (everybody should know what it means to be a Metroid game, but let's not kid ourselves here). It's like defining a word with itself. "The definition of Jump is Jump."

You're getting a bit too twisted over this. You say it's trivial, then why the need to forcibly call it an adventure game as if the First Person label means anything? That doesn't add up. And again, why does the label even matter with Metroid games specifically? Everybody who plays games knows what the series is. If a newbie has questions, they'll find out about the adventure elements. They are not monkeys who get stuck up about a genre label.

It is plainly labeled as an adventure/FPS title in most gaming stores and to the uninformed and parent-types, it is a first-person-shooter. You are in first person, and you shoot. You don't negotiate with aliens. You don't cast magic and play around in a field. You shoot. That is its most literal term. You can't consider all FPS games to be "FPS Adventure" or "FPS puzzle" or "FPS fighting" or "FPS RPG" or "FPS with RPG elements" and expect that to do any justice to what the game itself tries to convey. That is plainly disingenuous. Imagine calling Heretic a FPS/Adventure/Fantasy/Magic game or something longwinded. To an insane Heretic fan, it may make sense. But it's still an FPS. You can look up or play the demo or read a review and find out how the game is like. Not rocket science.

Really, when it comes right down to it, gaming is a very personal experience: What we like, what we don't like, what makes or breaks an experience what defines an experience... I just feel that calling the Metroid games Adventure games serves as a better descriptor than calling them shooters. Shooters, whatever the flavor, call to mind a combat focus that just isn't present in Metroid. Even Corruption, which has the heaviest combat presence of the Prime Trilogy doesn't make combat its main focus. It's not a constant presence and the most common enemies are still more nuisance than threat.

I agree Metroid is built as an adventure game first, but the FPS aspect is not entirely out of the picture if at least because of the genre convention of the format itself. You strafe, you jump, and even the controls and switching guns/weapons has the true FPS feel to it, though Retro did the best job of the jumping mechanics like with Metroid games.

And you say it's a personal experience and I agree. To me, the entire FPS genre is being too looked down upon. Even amongst relatively hardcore gamers or even those who play them, there's not enough appreciation for how far FPS games have come. And even with older FPS games, the sense of adventure was foremost with the singleplayer modes. Just because the mulitplayer and twitch gameplay is more widely known, it doesn't magically make the adventure aspect of the games disappear.

Also, some retailers don't bother with the "FPS" label since it could be 3rd person or something almost 100% akin to FPS games like with Mercenary, Splinter Cell or Gears of War. It's just "shooter". And Metroid can be definitely be seen as a 'shooter' and 'adventure' in that category. But I still say that the FPS is exactly the convention of Metroid at its core while its entire gameplay is still adventure-based in the Metroid convention. The FPS label really should not be used disparagingly IMO. It's just a genre. Whatever negative connotations you may put on it is of your own subjectivity. Not the genre or the perception even. Metroid is a Metroid as long as they keep to the spirit of it.

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With the Metroid Prime games, compared to other shooters, the one thing that really pushes it aside is that, even if you took out ALL the combat, including the bosses, you're still left with a decent adventure game, almost in the style of Myst(but without so many totally insane, crazy puzzles).

A world with a history, which you can only really uncover by scanning and reading. Puzzles which aren't always doable the first time you encounter them, and often leave you having to remember where they were in the first place, so you can go back there later, in order to progress.

Without any of the combat, you're still left with a fleshed out adventure game. Could even turn it into a decent mystery game, if they wanted to add a few extra elements.

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lots of stuff

Not going to respond point by point this time. Again, I never meant to disparage FPS'. Ultimately, many modern games are becoming too robust and varied to fit into classic genre labels. But labels are still given to them for the purpose of a quick tag. A description in a single word for people to digest at a glance. Ideas too complex to make clear in a single sentence may not reach the consumer's ear at all. This is well understood in advertising. It's the consumer's first impression. Gamers used to being in the know dismiss this out of hand.

The reason I think applying accurate genre labels (specifically where Metroid is concerned since that's my focus here) probably stems from some of the gamer reaction I read back when the first Prime came out. Amidst the praise I read a significant number of posts from people who felt Prime was a poor game. Their specific complaints made it apparent they went into Prime expecting a classic shooter with the combat elements traditionally associated with the genre and found little to shoot at with controls not well suited to twitch combat. Again, this was not the game's fault, it was misplaced expectations.

With the Metroid Prime games, compared to other shooters, the one thing that really pushes it aside is that, even if you took out ALL the combat, including the bosses, you're still left with a decent adventure game, almost in the style of Myst(but without so many totally insane, crazy puzzles).

A world with a history, which you can only really uncover by scanning and reading. Puzzles which aren't always doable the first time you encounter them, and often leave you having to remember where they were in the first place, so you can go back there later, in order to progress.

Without any of the combat, you're still left with a fleshed out adventure game. Could even turn it into a decent mystery game, if they wanted to add a few extra elements.

Exactly so. My own example gives Samus a sword and replaces the sci-fi stylings of the environments with fantasy elements (but maintains the same mood and atmosphere). Even if you remove the shooting element, you still end up with the same basic game, the same experience, sitting squarely in the same genre. But if you remove the shooting element from a game that falls into the (robust and varied) shooting genres, you fundamentally change the experience. Guns into swords changes your whole tactical approach and how you use the environments. The games would have to be moved into a different genre (hack and slash for some, maybe even full blown action adventure for others). The shooting element, however it's applied, is just a lot more important to these games.

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You know what I think is undefined now? The genre of 'Adventure'; I understand where Injin is saying there is a sense of adventure in some FPS games... but does that mean that the game is of the 'Adventure' type? No. That means the level designers have crafted a level that manipulates your emotions, instilling a sense of adventurousness in you while you play. I have never played FarCry, but I have seen enough of it to know that the primary use of environment is cover; you explore the scenery to gain a tactical advantage, not to reach the next area to explore.

The difference, for example, is exploration in the traditional Metroid sense; the environment, to the basic player, most likely will work against you to impede your path (I say 'basic player' because anyone who has seen Metroid speed runs knows that these people are mutants who don't follow conventional logic). Unless you hit the edge of a map, traditional FPS games, such as FarCry, don't have environments whose main goal is to impede your progress (and before anyone says it, I mean on a deeper level than you have to get the key to a door or find a bridge across a chasm; this is 'adventuring' in a very shallow sense, and certainly the gameplay is not built around you finding keys, unlike the 'adventure' games in the LoZ series; it could also be argued that beam weapons are likened to 'keys' in Metroid games, because they have the secondary function of opening doors and only certain beams may open certain doors, but I digress).

And, I am glad you bring up Oblivion, because it is the perfect example of the genre-blending that the Prime games experience, which seems to be misinterpreted. Oblivion is an RPG. That is its genre. There is no First-Person tacked onto Oblivion's genre title; this, however, may seem contradictory, as the game is played from a first-person perspective, that is. until you take a deeper look.

The fact that Oblivion is played in the first person is trivial because the object of the game is to level up your character. There is combat, of course, but the combat is there for the express purpose of bolstering your character's abilities. The first person element is primarily for a sense of immersion, which is not the case with first person shooters; it could easily be argued that the reason first person games are played in the first person is to gain the tactical advantage that comes with precision aiming.

The difference between Oblivion and other first person games is that Oblivion's combat is very shallow in the sense that you either attack or cast spells, but you never have to worry about a tactical advantage with respect to the placement of your character and your enemy because unless you have a spell that allows otherwise (or a good bow), confrontations are always very direct, which is not the case with a first person shooter, where tactical advantages are gained based on weapon choice AND character placement. In Oblivion, strategy is in your abilities; in FPS's, strategy is based on out maneuvering your opponent.

This is where Metroid Prime begins to enter grey area, but this can be easily rectified by examining, as AarowSwift did, the priorities of the game. You can easily tell that combat is secondary in Prime (or truly any Metroid) game because the bosses are the only enemies that impede your progress; you never are required to fight a single enemy, which is markedly different in FPS games, where the only thing impeding your progress is the group of enemies in front of you.

Adventure will always be the focus of a Metroid game because that is what the series was built upon; the method of adventure and exploration may change (such as the move to 3D in Prime), but the spirit will remain the same. This is important because we all know that, for instance, Star Fox Adventures is supposed to be a Star Fox game, but shares nothing with any other Star Fox game, just as it could be argued that Hunters is barely, if at all, at Metroid game. In order for a series to be a series, all of it's component games must have a significant relation to each other; that's WHY they are called series. Yes, Prime games are played in the first person. But any REAL analysis of the Prime games betrays the fact that, as AarowSwift said, this detail is trivial.

--Jack Kieser

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metroid has been put into its own genre called "metroidvania" (the "vania" comes from koji igarashi developed castlevania games, most notably SoTN).

aside from metroid and SoTN the genre includes games like blaster master, faxanadu, and legacy of the wizard.

/thread

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I went through and read some of the posts and they posed some very reasonable arguements. I will have to say, despite the first part of the game, that Corruption did have a metroid feel to it, particularly in the SkyTown area. And the fact that almost all of your allies in the beginning turn against you, made it a bit better. But I agree with what someone said about there being a lack of solitude in the game. I consider Samus Aran my role-model because she is so independent, and doesn't give a fuck what everyone else says or does. And I felt that was lacking in this game.

Again, I love the game, I'm not dissing it. I can't wait till I beat it.

Oh, and they need to make another hand-held metroid game other than that Hunters piece of shit.

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metroid has been put into its own genre called "metroidvania" (the "vania" comes from koji igarashi developed castlevania games, most notably SoTN).

aside from metroid and SoTN the genre includes games like blaster master, faxanadu, and legacy of the wizard.

/thread

Its not a description of metroid, its a description of castlvania games taking an approach similar to metroid. Starting around SOTN.

It's still a platformer. A platformer of the Metroid school, which, when used with castlvania creates the metroidvania genre.

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Its not a description of metroid, its a description of castlvania games taking an approach similar to metroid. Starting around SOTN.

It's still a platformer. A platformer of the Metroid school, which, when used with castlvania creates the metroidvania genre.

to be honest i dont even know why they added the 'vania', i guess the name came up around the time SoTN was out. castlevania 2 is described as metroidvania as well.

it doesnt need to be a platformer. the word describes the general idea of finding an item which opens up new areas to find new items, most of the time requiring free roaming exploration and backtracking within a constant world.

the legend of zelda series can be described as a more streamlined metroidvania.

also, they could have called it castletroid, but metroidvania sounds better.

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Your both frigging wrong, look at Knightmare 2. They aren't "Castleroids" or "Metroidvanias," They're "Galiouses!"

Or even further, "Dragon Slayer Two-sies."

not many people know what youre talking about, so metroidvania will have to suffice.

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I went through and read some of the posts and they posed some very reasonable arguements. I will have to say, despite the first part of the game, that Corruption did have a metroid feel to it, particularly in the SkyTown area. And the fact that almost all of your allies in the beginning turn against you, made it a bit better. But I agree with what someone said about there being a lack of solitude in the game. I consider Samus Aran my role-model because she is so independent, and doesn't give a fuck what everyone else says or does. And I felt that was lacking in this game.

Again, I love the game, I'm not dissing it. I can't wait till I beat it.

Oh, and they need to make another hand-held metroid game other than that Hunters piece of shit.

dems fightin words missy

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Why do you make it sound like FPS games are bad for it? Even Doom games had a similar structure with the unlocking of doors and a lot of other games including System Shock and games of similar ilk had pretty good puzzle elements from the level design alone. I simply don't think it matters to differentiate. The only differentiating factor to me is that it's a Metroid game. No more no less..

FPSs aren't bad for that kind of stuff, they just doesn't focus on it like the Prime games. And I think it does matter that these elements are used to differentiate because just because the game contains those elements, it doesn't mean they are big part of the gameplay. Hell, these elements could have been put in by accident.

You can, but it's not designed to. Especially not with Prime games. Even with 2D Metroid games, they create a very good illusion of open ended gameplay, but the path is pretty set if you can figure out the exploratory aspect.

There are two problems with this statement. One, just like I said above, sequence breaking is part of the games even if it wasn't supposed to be in there, not designed to be in there, etc. but it is still a part of the game just like backtracking, exploration and etc. are part of FPSs, in design or not. Two, you make it seem like the only types of games that can be non-linear are open-ended, free-roaming games which is wrong. Those types of games are the most non-linear but they aren't the only types of games that are non-linear. Linear games are games like Super Mario Bros., Pacman, On-rail shooters. I'm not going to even bother explaining why they are linear, you should know why.

You just described a lot of FPS games. It just seems to me that people have a lot of misconceptions of other FPS games on top of talking about Metroid games. Keep it to Metroid Prime, not trampling on all the merits of all FPS games under the sun.

Your just making misconceptions about me. If you read my post more clearly, you would know I had said I'm very familiar with FPSs. I play and really like a lot of FPSs. I have played the Half-life series, Doom series, Unreal series, Quake series, Farcry, Halo series, Red Steel, and oh so many others I can't think of right know. Half-life 2, Unreal 2004 and Doom 3 are three of my most favorite games. However, none of those mentioned offered an experience comparable to the Prime games plain and simple. Yet each one of those felt a little similar in some form or fashion.

Again, what need is there to differentiate? The sole differentiating factor should be that it's a Metroid.

Because Metroid is not a shooter. I know the whole agurement is that games shouldn't have genres, but thats just unrealistic. Genres aren't just simple labels given to things, they are descriptions that inform people of what type of game they might be playing. When people see the FPS tag slapped on Metroid Prime, they are going to try it out because they think it may offer something similar to other FPSs they have played. That is when they get dissapointed and claim its a bad game. Thats why it needs something to differeniate, like the genre FPA.

Anyone who played games can differentiate Portal from Postal.

Just for your information, Portal is being called a "First Person Action Puzzle Game". This is also what Valve themselves is calling it.

Finally, regardless if you still think the Prime games are FPSs, just know that other people don't see them that way and that should be ok. You don't need to change their mind. Let them view it as a FPA if they want, its not going to change anything. If people think the Prime games are FPSs thats fine, but they better be prepared for the completely different experience they offer.

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Because Metroid is not just a shooter.

This would probably be a better way to put it. I understand the point you're trying to make, but Metroid Prime has very prominent shooter elements that can't just be glossed over.

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This would probably be a better way to put it. I understand the point you're trying to make, but Metroid Prime has very prominent shooter elements that can't just be glossed over.

but the game isnt driven by the shooter nature. aside from bosses, you dont have to shoot a single thing (well, except doors).

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dems fightin words missy

Well, Hunters is a pretty bad game(single-player anyway). Online was cool for the time that I played it. Although, sometimes it was quite annoying when people would get the first kill and just run around and hide in their alt-form for the rest of the match.

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figboot i agree about single player but who bought it to play single player?

also figboot convince me to get this game now instead of later because i want to so bad and i have the money for it but im also waiting for fft for the psp

CONVINCE ME

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Back to spoilers.

So I finally beat Mogenar on Hyper difficulty. Been trying him a couple times each day and today I took him down in one try with 3+ energy tanks left. The secret? Well, besides avoiding every single hit, hitting the orbs with charged shots right when the open followed by a full voley of power beam shots every single time, using the charge beam in hyper mode for faster broken orb killing, and getting 3x bombs on the feet on a charge followed by 3x bombs after the charge so it breaks and you can use the stun time and lack of stomp to 6x the other foot... is...

Collecting the large amount of energy that drops right after you break an orb. Break an orb, go into Hyper right away and charge up while moving around for your opening to collect that energy.

Solution to door loading times. Shoot them well before you get there. I've just been flying through Skytown. I started using the boost ball for movement speed- smart idea. Try boosting into a group of those robots, you get a token for "bowling for bots". You also move rather fast, obviously.

Not finding any real sequence breaks. I have to say I can't figure out what ship missile expansions are for... Dealing with enemies comes down to three things(which makes hyper difficulty more fun) Missiles, Ignoring them, or Hyper Mode.

Stopped just before I have to drop the spire on the shield. On my first run, I just used Hyper Mode all the way through, I figure I'm going to do the same this next time. Not too excited to do it though. Overall, there seems to be a lot of opportunities to perfect your speed, and reminds me much of Super Metroid speed runs that had 0 sequence breaks and aimed to get under 3 hours. However, I'm hoping there will be some cool or interesting sequence breaks will be discovered.

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This would probably be a better way to put it. I understand the point you're trying to make, but Metroid Prime has very prominent shooter elements that can't just be glossed over.

Yeah I guess that is a much better way to put it but despite the shooter elements, Metroid games are essentially action adventure. Like AarowSwift keeps saying, there is a big difference between a game like Contra and a game like Metroid.

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eten,

boost ball isnt a new concept for speed runners :). not only that, you should stay in the ball and lay a bomb next to a door before unmorphing.

obviously, but "bowling for bots" made me laugh.

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obviously, but "white writing" made me laugh.

Same here. I really wasn't expecting that. Brilliant. Wonder what other things like that there were that I might have missed.

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Same here. I really wasn't expecting that. Brilliant. Wonder what other things like that there were that I might have missed.

I actually missed that. Can't believe I didn't think about it.

However, one thing I had a great level of fun with was using the lasso to drain or overload enemies. Grab on a shield and push forward, watch it explode.

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