Trianine
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Posts posted by Trianine
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essentially you have no right to force somebody to not have fun under the pretense that you're doing it in a heroic fashion
Okay, it really is nice to see that you guys have some understanding of ethics/philosophy. I am also a bit ashamed to have not read any Ayn Rand. Considering I consider myself an Objectivist.
As for Rambo, I really have nothing left to say on the matter, we disagree, and should agree to do so. I will only summarize by saying that I do not believe the problem to be dire as it is usually self-correcting, and the proposed solution has problems that are beyond players to fix.
Also, thank Clefairy for the vote suggestion, it really is his idea. If considered seriously, it would need a lot of thought to work, I am sure of this. But it has merit as a compromise.
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After watching and discussing this whole class limit thing, I do want to throw a proposal out. Would we be able to agree that putting a class limit on cart push maps and attack/defend maps to reduce grief, but not put these restrictions on other map types?
My thinking is this: CTF maps are frequently taken less seriously and are often more casual fun. And because of the map designs and game flow, snipers are more effective on CTF and KotH, at least.
I would suggest map votes for eliminating/reinstating the class limit on the map types but I have a feeling that any vote dedicated to a minority class will never succeed.
ALSO:
I hereby invite all career pyros, career snipers, career spies and any other players that have a career class, to find CLEFAIRY and show him your handiwork personally.
He thinks you are a myth like the unicorn and dragon.
<3 Trianine
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Then it seems we're at an impasse, because you still don't understand where I'm coming from. I'm considering the success of a team, compared to the success of an individual.
"I understand that you want people to play as a team, win as a team."
agreed.If this isn't what you have been trying to drive home all this time, please let me know.
The only reason I didn't say lets agree to disagree in my last response is because it really didn't seem like you grasped what I was saying. I was tempted to, because we don't agree.
Somewhere along the line, many users have adopted the notion that wanting to win is wrong. Bad even. If this was the view held by the majority of the community, the MOTD would be structured very differently.I'm sorry Rambo, but I have to call bullshit on this. I would say that having a good time is more valuable than winning, but winning is winning for a reason. I was content to lose a game last night, because it was such a great game. That doesn't mean I think winning is bad. And I really don't think these feelings of yours are congruent with our player base or reality.
I'll agree with you. This could happen and no, it wouldn't be fair. But it would be extremely rare. One of the few reasons we're having conflicting arguments is because I'm taking a utilitarianistic approach to the situation, instead of idealistic.Ugh, utilitarianism is okay in concept. But it's a deeply flawed philosophy that allows euthanasia of the weak, handicapped, and other invalids, "for the greatest happiness of the most individuals." Proponents still have to decide on the value of other peoples lives and often neglect the benefits that come out of hardship. Sorry, I've had a few run-ins with utilitarianism in the past.
Another reason we're finding disagreements is because you have the opinion that all classes are equal. I don't share this opinion.Nor do I. I thought you knew this. I'm pretty sure you've commented right here in this forum about how I felt snipers are useless. I still think they are the least useful class by far.
But you act as though we're elliminating the class all together.No, I'm acting as though we are eliminating a players choice to play that class at will. Go ahead, keep putting words in my mouth. I don't mind. I do not believe that winning is everything, and that the frustrating moments in server when a team gets absolutely raped, are not worth the other moments where people get silly and decide there are only three classes to choose from. Sniper, of course, being a favorite.
And I think that is where we are different. IIRC your position is unyieldingly play-to-win. And frankly, there are other ways to enjoy the game than to play competitively 100% of the time. The class limit you endorse will make complete steamrolling less of a problem, but it will do so at the cost of simply having casual fun. And I don't think it's enough of a problem that it warrants limiting peoples fun in every other case.
Please forgive any previously stated hostile remarks. I found your sly use of "Capisce?" to be very condescending.To base a whole argument on one word... I used capisce because I though saying "Understood?" would come off as condescending. Go figure, I come from an Italian household.
It's alright rambo, I still love you <3
I like to discuss with intensity, and I don't keep hard feelings.
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If there is one thing I have to disagree with you on it's this:
lets reward them by doing nothing?...We'll just have the people who don't give a shit on one team, getting rolled by the people who care about playing with a team. Capisce?If you call getting steamrolled a reward, as these sentences suggest, then sure, we are rewarding them. However, I don't call getting steamrolled a reward and I think most people here would agree that it is not and we are not. People are not content doing nothing and not winning, you know it, and that is why we are even discussing it here. Your final solution would defeat the point of playing the game, don't you think? If you want to be taken seriously, act like it. If you have to say something like this, you really don't understand where I am coming from.
I will repeat myself, this is a player problem and not a class problem. The class issue is only a symptom and stomping it will not get rid of the underlying problem.
I will agree with you that a poor class breakdown will cause you to almost always lose except when faced with an equal or worse breakdown. I will also agree that a team with 3 bad snipers and one good one would likely be at a disadvantage. But what if two or 3 or even all of those snipers were really good? Would you deny them their glory? Why is that fair?The people who play spy/sniper exclusively will join a team of 3 snipers, or 3 spies, and play that class anyway... So considering you may actually have a good sniper in those slots, that's a lottery with better odds than the current one.I've been on teams like you describe. It gets bad, especially on attack/defense maps. But you know what? Usually the teams even out. After getting steamrolled a few times, players do tend to re-evaluate what they are doing. As long as there isn't some serious teamstacking/clanstacking going on. As long as there isn't griefing involved, I applaud a players ability to choose to play to learn or play to the best of their ability, and I don't really think you understand that.
You also implied that my circumstance is a lottery, which it is not. Drawing straws (class limits) is a lottery, not drawing straws (free choice) is not. You speak of better odds, but I think you forget that the team with the most snipers is more likely to get the best sniper, regardless of any lottery. They are also more likely to get the worst sniper. These better odds are meaningless in your example.
The fact that you keep saying it doesn't make it more true. If you have two people being useless as a class, any class, it does not reward the team by holding back a person who is good at that same class. There may be other holes to fill, sure. But if those players aren't doing their job, that hole too is open still. If you aren't great with that class, sure, it's only going to hurt the team more. But you propose to take the choice of negotiation away from the team to decide if they have great snipers or spies and instead hold their hand with an arbitrary limit. And I oppose that.If they have any concern for the team, they'd wouldn't be a 3rd sniper/spy anyway. They'd fill in the roles that the team was inevitably missing from having a surplus of support classes.
I understand that you want people to play as a team, win as a team. So do I. And we both want people to have fun. Part of the fun of this game is the ability to choose what archetype you get to play as. Part of the fun is getting to be effective as another class if you are dying a lot as another. If you do not give people the opportunity to learn this on their own, they won't learn it. Part of playing as a team is communicating as a team. If you you call on the army of snipers staring at the walls, and they don't do something about it, they are not team players. Removing their ability to be sniper won't fix that. Having them die a lot and then choose otherwise, that might.
If they really want to be sniper, they are entitled to that. It's their game and they have their reasons for not playing any number of games that also have sniping. If we can convince them they want to play something else, great. If we enforce they play something else, they are probably just going to leave the server.
Edit: Diatomic Daddy puts this nicely, is a frustrating enemy and a great ally. <3
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Don't be ignorant, there is nothing hypothetical about players who play, almost exclusively, <INSERT-CLASS-HERE>. Like I said Clefairy, it's a player problem, not a class problem. Your scenario illustrates that nicely but really has little to do with the class limit. Additionally, while I agree that people should learn different roles, people do have classes they like to play. And when they are denied that, frequently, it gets a little old. And really, who are you to tell people what class to enjoy? Hmm?
OTOH, I would like to thank half of our snipers who switched up when I pointed out we were having difficulty meeting our objectives yesterday. It made a big difference.
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This is ALREADY the case.
I think you misunderstand. To the people who basically play sniper/spy exclusively and are fairly good at it, you are taking their position and making it a lottery. That is most certainly not the case now.
It's bad to have a useless spy. It can be really harmful to not have any dependable spies. If you pit lumpy up on a team against two useless and headstrong snipers and prevent a decent sniper from competing, there is no way to shake up the team to fix that without scrambling both teams.
Class limits do not turn useless players into good ones. They do not guarantee a well balanced team. They do not magically turn a team of four snipers into a winning team. They only make that team a team with less snipers. We have done class limits before, and while I was happy to not see an entire team of snipers, it resulted in a lot of whining on the server. And I am prepared to make a bet that the decision will be reversed because people will tire of the class limit.
Because ultimately this is a player problem and not a class problem. The class issue is only a symptom and stomping it will not get rid of the underlying problem. Capisce?
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We start using class limits and see how long it takes for you to get frustrated cause some noob is taking up your precious slot.
We've been through this before. But clefairy's idea is a good compromise.
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Yeah I really hate that the two corner areas with water are pretty much useless other than to hide a teleporter
Depending on which version of the map, those areas are great for the jumping classes as well. And spies can use them as easy escape and heal points. Just because they are dead ends doesn't make them useless. That's what makes them advantageous.
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Every once in a while things get screwed up and you can't see shit properly. It seems like most of us know how to record a demo and stop it to reset certain video problems.
But I've been playing with scripting, and there is a super simple way to do so with the push of a button.
bind "YOURKEYHERE" "+refresh"alias +refresh "record demo"
alias -refresh "stop demo"
You do actually have to hold the button down for a moment, but when you let go, all should be fine!
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When I started playing TF2 I only played arena and I wasn't very good, so I'd love to go back and play it again on a server that isn't shit
Y'know, I'll start nominating arena maps when I'm on, cause there are a few folk like us who actually enjoy playing it. I would like to hear more people who are vocal about arena.
Although I do think some of the arena maps make much better KOTH maps. Nucleus and Sawmill both stand out to me.
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I think having class limits, limits a teams ability to negotiate what classes they should have. During the spy/sniper update it was an acute problem, but now it just limits peoples ability to have fun.
I don't do so often, but I like TEAM SPY CHAOS or SNIPER PACK DESCEND AND DEVOUR THE WEAK once in a while. Usually after a round or two of complete steamroll the teams get evened out one way or another.
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No, doing things to make your teammates mad is called being an idiot. If you look it up you'll see things like spawncamping and such as being primary elements of griefing.
Griefing can include spawncamping, I'll admit, but spawncamping isn't necessarily griefing. Make sense?
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You know what griefing is? TOSSING GRENADES INTO THE EFFING RESPAWN.
Atmuh being butthurt because people want to goof off and melee only is not griefing.
That's not griefing, it's spawncamping. And there is a reason grenades were removed from everyone but demoman!
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Children, behave.
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I'm not accusing anyone of stacking but auto-assign is worthless when its effects are completely predictable(and they are). And how were the games last night? My memory's more than a bit foggy...It assigns you randomly on CP Symmetric, CTF, KOTH, and Arena (with the queue disabled).
I had my suspicions, but had no idea that's how it worked, I guess because of the different map types. Thanks powerlord for elucidating.
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...if the teams are stacked there's certainly no harm in trying.
Actually, I agree with you 100%. If the teams are stacked, it doesn't matter if they become more stacked, but they are more likely to become less stacked. But just you listen to them complain! And in part they are right, statistically there is a risk of things being worse.
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One of the reasons I love this server is because the teams seem to even out pretty easily. That said, I have to concur that team stacking has been a gripe recently.
people would rather complain about getting rolled four times on Turbine, or even not say anything, than they'd like to try to votescramble.The reason for this is that votescramble is unreliable and often makes matters worse. The scramble tools that we have used so far (to the best of my knowledge) only look at points and/or dominations. While this is good in theory, it is not effective for cart maps because players are rewarded for pushing the cart, but not rewarded for stopping it. In addition, a players score tends to indicate time played rather than player skill, so a great player who just recently joined could be placed on a team that does not need the extra help, and further pervert the balance.
this is especially noteworthy when teams differ greatly in skill (less points rewarded overall) and on cart maps(disproportionate score for cart pushers).
A more effective system would be to use player skill, which could arguably rely on HLstats or Psychostats (of which HLStats is heavily dependent on player time rather than skill) or any record keeping tools to balance the team.
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Gentlemen.
Last night my video uploaded. If you frequent the OCR TF2 Server I promise that you'll like this video. However, I'm not making any promises.
I missed out on Karaoke night?! DX
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Everyone who went to bed early missed something great.
No, I won't tell you what it was.
If certain other people want to make disclosures, though, that's their business.Halo's versus Idlers match? Was there teabagging, or just a lot of standing and staring?
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It amuses me to think that some day trading might take place, and I can trade someone's innocence for some paltry hat.
Yea, some guys were talking smack today about not healing halos. I'm not very eloquent when playing and talking, so I don't think I got through to them just how lame that is. As much as I made noise in here today, it really is surprising how much people care, and in the bad way.
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I don't just post to see my own text on the screen. Stop being a dick.
Calm down. I meant what I said, and didn't expect you to even reply. Your swift dismissal of my previous comment in addition to the curt reply led me to believe that you don't really care. So I asked, because I enjoy having these discussions only if they aren't one-way. I am sorry if my response was colored condescending, that was not intended. I do recognize the use of the words as you describe them, however do try to distinguish between the common misuse of the word and the actual definition. You might know the word rootkit. Many people mistake an actual rootkit for something conceptually similar. Much like, I believe, the way you describe an exploit. Basically, I think you are reaching with your definitions.
Wikipedia has a specific article on exploits in video games. I don't think the definitions are dissimilar, honestly, but this article is much clearer, for sure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_%28online_gaming%29 It very succinctly agrees that it is an exploit under the EULA, and even mentions AFK gaming. I don't know enough about data mining to say that's what this is. But it sounds... close.
I still disagree with your jumping on the word "trick". Any number of words can be used to describe how the program and steam interact. Trick, is a biased word, it doesn't describe the process at all, rather how the user feels about the process. You could say seduced, raped, won, negotiated, and all of those words are anthropomorphic extensions that sum up what goes on, but have very different connotations, none of which are really appropriate, given the term in question, fraud. And we are not "deceiving" an individual, as the article states, but a program. if you actually read the full article of Fraud, you will find that the idler program doesn't meet the criterion for fraud, at all. I didn't think I'd have to go and say that.
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Have you read Wikipedia's definition of fraud?
Unless Valve's servers can pass a Turing test, I fail to see how you can trick it into doing anything. It merely responds to the requests given to it in a strictly defined manner.
Actually, I have seen this selection of the Subscriber Agreement, and it is a good reminder that the idler was in fact against the rules. And I wholly support Valve standing by that and essentially shutting it down. And you shut down half of my argument, but I still stand by my principals in saying that the punishment was not merited (and despite the EULA) no crime was committed.
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Kinda like carrying that knife in CounterStrike, eh? I wonder what kind of speed boost it will offer, will it be worth the damage reduction? The heavy gloves are fearsome tools. But even at a modest speed, three-hitting a scout is not a fun solution to me. It would make traveling around maps nice though.
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Zircon, I'm going to pull out the dictionary for you to read, not for one, but two words. Both obtained by Wikipedia,and both used by you.
Cheating:
Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others, [1]
Cheating implies the breaking of rules.
Exploitation:
- The act of using something for any purpose. In this case, exploit is a synonym for use.
- The act of using something in an unjust or cruel manner. It is this meaning of exploitation which is discussed below.
Just because you feel Idling is wrong doesn't mean it fits the terms you have given it. Before you talk about my comment being contradictory, you should at least not misuse these basic words. Do you actually care, or are you just here because you didn't like what I said and had to say something?
- The act of using something for any purpose. In this case, exploit is a synonym for use.
OCR TF2: New Server forthcoming - new server IPs and other stuff
in General Discussion
Posted
There isn't fun in that. Just like there isn't any fun in being told you are not allowed to have casual fun because of an arbitrary limit.
Maybe it hardly works because you are being disrespectful to your teammates instead of being constructive, have you thought about that? Part of being a team player is being "Mr Negotiations and Policies" to pick up your team and... make them not suck! Communicate with your team. Don't bitch about how other people are not being team players if you are unwilling to do so yourself.