Sil
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Posts posted by Sil
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A hobbyist musician who is not totally bent on uber quality will be able to enjoy this material.
That's the tradeoff. If you're satisfied with the quality, who am I to say anything? What I'm against is the presupposition made in the first post that Miroslav is a comparatively high quality library and that you're not going to suffer the same trials disappointments I already struggled with 5 years ago. But again, if you're fine with that, then there's no problem. It will be a learning experience if anything.
However, it is important to remember that with every new release (or rerelease with a lower price), hobbyists will be swayed into thinking all their problems will be solved by a "higher quality" library. It's not a huge stretch to see the parallels between this and graphics in games. We've come so far in sampling only to learn that realism is a matter of compromise, and that's all Miroslav really is: a compromise. It's a problem I've had with sample libraries for a long time, and I'll probably be saying the same thing when VSL has come down to the hobbyist level.
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I'm no expert on orchestral libraries, but I have to disagree with anyone who flat out calls this a bad investment.
It's a bad investment when you can't expect a greater return. I know because I've made several bad investments when it comes to orchestral sampling. Not just in money, but in time spent playing with it trying to get them to sound good. And the fact these all-in-one libraries of today force you to buy them as one expensive package instead of individual instruments doesn't make me feel any better.
Yes, better libraries exist, but you will pay more for them too.You will pay more for a better computer too, that's no reason to buy an outdated one. I have free percussion and brass samples (except horns) that are way better than Miroslav's, so that's 25% ($150) of the library already made obsolete.
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Sil, while we're at it, do you have an opinion on GPO?
It's not any better than Miroslav. While Miroslav fulfilled the need for a high priced library, GPO was made to fulfill a need for a low priced one. It just lacks overall musicality. I'm not sure if it's entirely chromatically sampled, but there's no excuse for libraries that are yet sound so fake.
I should make it clear that I'm not a believer in all-in-one libraries, especially ever since SAM came along.
I was hoping to get some high energy brass, for example.Aren't we all?
the built in panning is not so goodThe so-called naturally panned violins are the bane of my existence.
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and a lot of skill.
Yes, skill plays a huge factor in working with samples and with enough of it you can make Miroslav or Squidfont sound good, but are you really willing to refine this skill for the next few years before you're able to produce that result?
The problem with the demos is that while their creators are obviously skilled, they were not playing to the library's strengths. Instead they had to showcase the numerous effects and playing styles they want it to be seen as being capable of. Maybe 5-10 years ago these demos were unrivaled, but not anymore.
Plus, these samples were an industry standard 10 years ago if I'm not mistaken. Went for 3000 - 4000 $ altogether. They've been remastered and new sounds were added.The only reason it was worth so much was because no one knew better. If they were the industry standard, that's because before them there was no standard for the quality of an orchestral library, how it should be priced, and what kind of product would be surpassing it in the immediate future. They were merely fulfilling an untapped market for professional composers who needed to hear their work before it was orchestrated for live performance, so hey, why not jack up the price? Us poor "hobbyists" didn't come along until later.
Also, a drop in price is an indication of becoming outdated. Just look at graphics cards, or computers for that matter.
I read up on some reviews and the general consensus was that the sounds have a very 'expressive' quality to them.Yes, the legato strings, oboe, and bassoon are nice if you're into writing slow pastoral music (like the opening of the White Pearl demo.) The tremolo, pizzicato, and staccato effects aren't bad either. But you will not be able to make convincing fast passages at all using the strings (look at how the New World demo doubles the arco violins with staccatos in order to get some kind of attack.) The brass and percussion are just terrible. So are the solo strings.
Sil, could you maybe point out what they're lacking specifically? Maybe that full EastWest cinematic sound?If that "cinematic sound" is the ability to write action cues using quick strings with blaring brass and percussion, then yes, Miroslav lacks that. Before I condemned the library I probably should have asked exactly what you'd be using it for, and maybe what aspect of the demos you find appealing so I could address what is sounding right and what isn't. For one, the most major issue that jumps right out at me when I listen to the demos is in the balance and volume. Miroslav is an extremely quiet library, especially in the strings, and for an orchestra that is definitely NOT the balance you want.
If you have to spend so much time playing with things like balance and articulation, you're losing time composing. Miroslav has some good points, but it is in no way a high quality library by today's standards, nor is it anymore effortless than Squidfont. Unless you're buying it for some specific purpose I'm unaware of, it's just a bad investment.
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Sorry to break it to you, but a repackaged library that's almost 10 years old is not really considered high quality anymore. Their demos are laughable by even ocremix's standards.
Remember, research is very important when investing in sample libraries.
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but I saw a short trailer of stuff already shot and read the screenplay and it was quite compelling stuff, so I jumped on it
In this day in age when everyone and their brother are making trailers and posting them on youtube, it's best to stay skeptical until you're watching the entire film on your home computer. If the trailer is made long before most of the film, it's usually a bad sign. Of course, you might be referring to something entirely different, but I'm just saying...
He got back to me and said that the director didn't want to show any footage until it was really close to complete...and I was like 'wtf mate etc' that is somewhat essential.In my experience, directors can be divas, and sometimes even hate to have to give up their beloved temp score (usually Moonlight Sonata for some reason) and leave it in the hands of another artist.
Therefore I'm not going to do it in 5 days. I think I'll take a little extra time. They've kept me waiting for two months, I'll let them wait for me a bit.That's the right idea, but maybe a little too late. I think you should be more courageous and threaten to leave the project if they (or just the director) can't be more professional. I find that directors sometimes feel they are doing everyone a favor by bringing them onto his project, and while this may be true to an extent, you have every right to tell him that if he's going to take his time and waste yours, he's going to miss out on a really good and original film score and might have to settle for something else. It's risky, but chances are he will respect you more because you seem like the pro. You CAN NOT score a film without footage (maybe you can, but don't tell him that) and unless he's premiering the film in 6 days, there is no reason to only give you 5.
I just realized I'm giving out relationship advice on a web forum...
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It's only fair.
You'd be a rare breed of management.
Cronyism isn't just reserved for politicians, you know.
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What would be interesting to find out is how it might lead to other careers in the game industry, be it music, programming, design, etc.
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Three of the biggest orchestral game soundtracks to come out of North America in the past 20 years: Outcast, Total Annihilation, and Heart of Darkness. None of these were the most popular of games, but they each had scores that even went beyond the scope of film music and probably could have ushered in the orchestral trend earlier if they had been more popular. There was nothing gimmicky about the use of an orchestra either as they all had great, drawn-out thematic material that would have sounded fine on an SB16 synth.
The Dig also seems to be falling into obscurity. I consider these four scores landmarks of game music.
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Ocarina of Time was the game that made me realize I could no longer play games and thus decided to focus my energy on composing, practicing, programming, and school. I only played it for 5 minutes and could tell it was a great game, but I decided to just watch my younger brother play it instead (it was one of the first games he bought, so it was like the torch was passed.) Since then the last "new" game I played all the way through was FF9, only playing it through once, and it took forever because I had this nagging feeling I was wasting my time. After that I called it quits and stopped buying games, but my brothers didn't so it's not like I've gone cold turkey.
It's weird that I can listen to classical music while browsing the internet for hours at a time, but I can't just sit down and play. It's merely psychological.
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It's too bad he doesn't put forth the effort to write original material -- the beats at the beginning didn't sound bad, and he could have gone somewhere with it that would have been successful without Schala's theme.
This is what's so mind-boggling about some ripoffs you hear these days, which causes me to believe some composers are consciously testing the waters of how far they can take their laziness. It takes all but 10 seconds to change around a few notes to make something original, but the fact that people aren't putting in that kind of effort suggests some other reason, for instance, they might think they're making some kind of homage to the original composer. If that's the case, I'd understand: why only half-rip someone off when no one is holding your feet to the fire anyway??
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Well the situation hasn't been really played out yet, it could very well happen that someone notifies Square about it, and they take appropriate measures. I think it could be considered a loophole if there were truly no possible way to persecute him with any success, which is not the case. Ah well, guess it all comes down to definition of 'loophole'.
Maybe "exploitation" would have been a better word for me to use. Either way, it will be interesting to see if Square goes after him, because from what I've seen nothing really happens.
What if I take this remix, remove most, if not all references to the source material ( of course the remix would have to be appropriate to allow this, but let's assume it is), replace those with original melodies etc. and then release it as an original song on a commercial album.You would be just like any other composer who has trouble coming up with original ideas. I think most people are concerned with melodic similarity, and once you eliminate that factor, you're perfectly safe. You would join the ranks of several of my favorite film composers who do just that.
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That depends on your definition of the legal system when it comes to music. Yeah, what he's doing is illegal, but the loophole, whether or not he is aware of it, is that no one cares... yet. I can name several composers who do this exact same thing, most of them high-profile, but again, who else but me cares or even notices such things? It took Gustav Holst's descendants years to go after Hans Zimmer for that Gladiator incident.
I'm not referring to the exploitation of the legal system, but the exploitation of people's knowledge and understanding of the creative process.
Zircon: I understand your analogy, but the difference is that no one knows it's a crime until they are told. It's a painstaking process to determine whether or not a crime was even committed, and in many cases might not even have been intentional.
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If someone gets away with a crime, it's a loophole.
Square could take him to court. A lot of people could take a lot of people to court.
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He would owe money to the copyright holders if he revealed where it came from, so he's probably going to play it safe and deny where he got the idea. Just another musician who found a loophole in the system, I'm afraid.
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If you could record the part, that'd be awesome, but take your time if you need to. I can send you the Shostakovich pieces that I'm attempting to emulate if you haven't heard them before (or just search for Jazz Suite on youtube.)
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I know, I just had to throw that out there.
You probably want music that sounds more like Globus (who I think are affiliated with the Immediate Music that supremespleen mentioned) and Karl Jenkins's Adiemus compilations. Plus, there's a ton of film music that fits the bill by composers like Craig Armstrong.
I would just refer to these as classical/electronica/world hybrid styles, but I can understand why they'd easily be referred to as "modern." The problem is the word "modern" is typically reserved for the atonal orchestral craziness that no one really listens to anyway.
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Penderecki, Schnittke, Pärt, Górecki, Tüür, etc.
These are the epic "modern classical" guys. E.S. Posthumous is more easy-listening/new age/world.
Kids these days...
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Numerous pieces have choirs backed by orchestra (listen to some of Vaughan Williams' symphonies) and you will find that they do not drown out the orchestra so much as work with it.
I know exactly what you mean, but what Vaughan Williams does in the Sea Symphony is not really yet possible with samples because he wrote it to have intelligible English that can actually be heard and understood. What we were going for here was more the unintelligible fugal style that just creates a wall of sound, which you really don't need to understand because the lyrics are just "Kyrie Eleison", but you make a good point about how when they come together everything is more coherent. Four separate parts at double forte is going to sound muddy no matter how you present it.
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The funny thing about this piece (or this style) is that the orchestral hall makes it sound worse. There is reverb, just enough to imitate a small room. Of course, this causes a problem with my main violin patch because it sucks and I have to use tremolo. They've yet to create a violin sample that can play this kind of quick, eighth-note action.
Thanks for the comments.
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It seems I've uncovered a never-before-heard piece by Shostakovich that seems to have been written in his "Jazz Suite" style:
Are there any saxophone players who want to play/record the sax part for me? Preferably on a soprano or alto sax with a very soft tone.
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Like the water drop, I've always assumed the bells had some cultural significance since they seem so prevalent in anime, as you say, to enhance the drama somewhat. It's possible it might be a borrowed sound from Western culture (sleigh bells are a kind of nostalgic sound, I guess) but it's interesting that they'd be used like any other traditional sound.
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Well, it's not as much the reverb as it is the authenticity. I'm attempting to find out if this is an instrument (it may not even be an instrument) that is used for a specific purpose, like Kabuki theatre or something. If worst comes to worst I'll just make something similar using sleigh bells.
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I just heard some similar bells/chimes in another anime, but they sounded more metal than wooden. Judging by the scene they were accompanying, perhaps they have something to do with Japanese funerals or graveyards? Google still isn't helping me with this mystery.
WIP - war game theme
in Post Your Original Music!
Posted
Change the second iteration of the trumpet to some combination of winds, like oboes and flutes playing in thirds or sixths. As things build harmonically around the 1:00 mark, double it with violins in octaves + thirds or sixths. Your strings seem really tame after 0:30.
As for the first iteration, well, to boost the sound you could get away with trumpets or horns playing in thirds and other close intervals below the melody (think Copland's Fanfare) or horns just down the octave in open intervals.