Need some help in the finer aspects of song construction.

[Meteo Xavier]

I've pretty much made it a second full-time job since April to drastically improve my song quality so that it they would at least sound believable, but there are a lot of things I'm trying to improve that I just can't seem to touch on and fix. I can't tell if I really need to work on it, or I'm just paranoid.

What I don't get is how a lot of songs can bring in and out a lot of additional instrumentation without making it seem awkward. I hear a lot of strings come in and additional percussion that comes in from the side and isn't too loud and really helps the emotional structure of the song, but isn't so front and center that when it gets taken out suddenly, it doesn't sound awkward. I have to rape the hell out of rolling and reverse cymbals and crashing sounds just so I can get song parts to link together. I have to layer, layer, layer just so the song sounds a little more full, but then I can't take it out or add anything else in because the sound spectrum is completely filled up.

I just hear a major difference between my songs and even inferior quality songs by others, so do they know something I don't, or am I just being paranoid? I'm trying to gauge it from the soundpoint of the listener. I know I can't produce studio quality music with just FL and some VSTs, but I still feel like I shouldn't have to go to extreme lengths to get it to sound like a real song.

Here are some examples:

http://www.savefile.com/files/1812034 - here's where I think I got most of it right, but like I said, I filled up the sound spectrum completely and raped the hell out of cymbals. I didn't add much the second time around and I worry it sounds too repetitive. I used a lot of soundfonts and only the guitar and the flute are professional VST instruments.

http://www.zshare.net/audio/19851692b9a6fa7a/ and this is me practicing. I don't think it sounds too bad, but it sounds too bare and I feel like the instruments are too stagnant in their spaces. I used mostly professional VSTs for the instruments and not much FX. Widening Delay, Stereo Enhancer, Compression and slight Reverb.

What do you think? Am I right or just paranoid?

[Wiesty]

Alot of it seems to be the reverb imo. It sounds like different instruments are in different rooms which makes for a very synthetic non professional sound.

You might also add a bit of stereo separation here and there. Id just pick a reference source and go through your song layer by layer and add stuff on making them sound good together and eventually all together.

[Meteo Xavier]

Alot of it seems to be the reverb imo. It sounds like different instruments are in different rooms which makes for a very synthetic non professional sound.

You might also add a bit of stereo separation here and there. Id just pick a reference source and go through your song layer by layer and add stuff on making them sound good together and eventually all together.

Reverb and stereo seperation for the first song? I could see that, but I've been taking your latter advice for a while and its been working only to a mixed success. What about the song parts coming together? How do you take out layers and instruments without taking out the song?

[Wiesty]

Thats mostly just in transitions and what not so i guess drums play a large roll in that. It just has to sound natural, i dunno. Listen to songs and study how they do it.

[Meteo Xavier]

At the risk of taking on an annoyed tone, Yeah I've been doing that for years now, but it doesn't actually teach you much, even when you dissect MIDIs in FL. My question was whether there are just general rules, tricks or "dos and don'ts" that apply to transitions and the soundscape.

[dannthr]

What I don't get is how a lot of songs can bring in and out a lot of additional instrumentation without making it seem awkward. I hear a lot of strings come in and additional percussion that comes in from the side and isn't too loud and really helps the emotional structure of the song, but isn't so front and center that when it gets taken out suddenly, it doesn't sound awkward. I have to rape the hell out of rolling and reverse cymbals and crashing sounds just so I can get song parts to link together. I have to layer, layer, layer just so the song sounds a little more full, but then I can't take it out or add anything else in because the sound spectrum is completely filled up.

Hey buddy,

The trick to this has nothing to do with whether or not something is front and center or off to the side or in the background. Committing to an instrumental shift is about doing it with confidence. You can't hesitate or act like there's something you need to cover up with a cymbal roll. For example, the transition at 2:54 of Tiny Grains, you don't even need a cymbal roll, but the fear that it would sound awkward has paralyzed your creativity.

That comes into the second issue. When you're working on a shoestring, you have to exploit the fact that your sounds aren't pro. You don't try to cover them up, necessarily, you're better off making your weakness your strength through commitment to the sound aesthetic.

If it sounds deliberate, confident, and meaningful--no one will question your choices.

The second link didn't even function for me.

My suggestion is to listen to "The March" from the movie, 1941 by John Williams. I know it's not pop music, and it's not quite the style you're going for, but I'm hoping that will help you look at the music more objectively. Notice how he manages his transitions from section to section and from instrumental shift to instrumental shift. He deftly manages to bring out the special texture of each of his soli and tutti instruments and arranges them compositionally to compliment eachother at just the right times.

When he cuts out an instrument group, no one bats an eye, because he does it with elegant confidence.