iLok???

[HoboKa]

Well this turned out to be an interesting discussion, even if I got a little too excited about it

Yeah...NI for now sounds like a good plan there Neblix

EDIT

just purchased the Damage drum pack from NI. It's friggin' killer >:3

Edited December 2, 2013 by HoboKa

[theshaggyfreak]

Now, I think Propellerhead has done it the best way. Their key is required to use Reason but you can also authorize via the internet when you start up the program. You can also designate one computer to hold the license on the hard drive itself.

To be honest, if one is worrying about using a USB key or forgetting it somewhere, that's not exactly the manufacturers problem and I tend to find it a weak argument. I have items that are smaller and worth much more to think about. USB keys are quite easy to handle logistically.

I personally feel that software developers have the right to protect their IP in the way they see fit. Dongles will scare off some people but I guarantee it's not enough to make much of a difference in their bottom line.

If you end up losing an iLok due to one reason or another, it is a bit of a pain getting your licenses back. I had to deal with this once at a studio I did some work for. Some companies are quite easy to deal with when getting a license replaced. Others are a nightmare. This isn't a problem with the iLok itself but more to do with how each individual company handles licensing issues. The help get around that, iLok does have a sort of downtime insurance that you can buy. If you've invested enough in plugins that require an iLok, then it's probably worth getting the insurance.

[Nabeel Ansari]

To be honest, if one is worrying about using a USB key or forgetting it somewhere, that's not exactly the manufacturers problem and I tend to find it a weak argument. I have items that are smaller and worth much more to think about. USB keys are quite easy to handle logistically.

Implying that musicians who contribute to the useful demographic are people who all sit in one room to make music, and that anyone who ISN'T like that and finds actual inconvenience doesn't count?

I paid $50 for a basic piece of plastic tech (it's not even built well, mine is falling apart and the usb plug cap has cracks) that does nothing but hold a few strings of numbers. If I lose it, there's going to be problems. You might as well say that inconvenience in and of itself is a weak argument, then you're getting into arguing that user experience does not matter at all. You don't have to be 100% ripped off for something to be inconvenient. Inconvenience is frustration and negative impacts on usage.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Neblix

[theshaggyfreak]

Implying that musicians who contribute to the useful demographic are people who all sit in one room to make music, and that anyone who ISN'T like that and finds actual inconvenience doesn't count?

My point is, the manufacture can't be blamed if you lose something. I don't really see dongles as an inconvenience at all. In my eyes, it's the same thing as having to remember to bring the power supply for my laptop or my audio interface. I feel that all of my equipment is my responsibility to keep track of whether it's one of my guitars or a little USB dongle.

Now, the one thing that I will give you is that the iLok (at least the original) has build quality issues and I've seen pictures of ones that have fallen apart from normal use. That's a totally different gripe, though.

[Nabeel Ansari]

My point is, the manufacture can't be blamed if you lose something. I don't really see dongles as an inconvenience at all. In my eyes, it's the same thing as having to remember to bring the power supply for my laptop or my audio interface. I feel that all of my equipment is my responsibility to keep track of whether it's one of my guitars or a little USB dongle.

I am more upset that I have to pay $50 for non-negotiable DRM. If I was working on something like just this past weekend and it happened again, but for something more important than an OCR album, I could've been in deep trouble; there is no way to use your software without the dongle. As far as the insurance; I shouldn't have to pay a subscription to use software that I already paid a full license fee for.

That's an incredibly sadistic business practice. Not even MMO's are that terrible, when you pay an MMO subscription, you pay for updates, you pay for patches. When you pay for iLok insurance, all you're paying for is the opportunity to use software you are already legally licensed to use when you don't have your dongle with you. You shouldn't need a hardware dongle. Ask for username and password. That's what NI does, and that's why NI products are far more popular than EW products.

I'm not saying they don't have a right to enforce iLoks. I'm saying it's arguably a bad decision to do so, and does hurt business and encourages piracy.

Now, the one thing that I will give you is that the iLok (at least the original) has build quality issues and I've seen pictures of ones that have fallen apart from normal use. That's a totally different gripe, though.

It's not a "different gripe", it's a main reason why iLoks are awful.

[avaris]

Dude apparently you're pissed about your experience with ilok. And it does suck. But you bought it. And you forgot your ilok. Hate to say but you made your bed and laid in it. Your experience is one of the worst case scenarios, however there are plenty of positive experiences of previously mentioned.

Waves which uses as system similar to NI has far worse worst case scenarios. Like not being able to use or license for a year. Almost happened to me. All BC I changed my wireless card.

And please explain a scenario where ilok encourages piracy?

[Flexstyle]

And please explain a scenario where ilok encourages piracy?

It's the scenario in which someone feels wronged by a company who hasn't actually done anything besides protect their intellectual property, I think. This whole attitude of "well, you're doing it wrong, so I deserve a copy of your software" that's so prevalent in the internet group-think.

Okay I'm ranting a bit, but it's this entitled mindset that fuels the piracy, not the hardware.

[Meteo Xavier]

If dongles were really as bad as critics made it out to be, EWQL wouldn't be used by scores of amateurs and professionals. That's basic common sense.

The real bottom line you're supposed to be getting here, Alex, is that dongles are not for everybody. Some people really freak out about them, as you can see here, and others don't really mind them at all. After that, it's just people wanking back and forth on the theoretical academics of the product and later the argument itself, as you can also see here.

There are better newer options than EWQL right now like that Da Capo I showed you earlier, and you may do better with that.

[Nabeel Ansari]

@Avaris: I'm not understanding what exactly you mean by "positive" experience.

How do you have "positive" experience with a dongle? I don't understand how DRM "helps the user" or gives them a "positive experience".

"I thoroughly enjoy activating my license on iLok. I just feel so satisfied and inspired whenever I plug it in. 5/5"

DRM serves only one purpose: to make using your software harder, and to kill flexibility and portability.

I'm not sure what worst case scenario with NI you're talking about either. You log into service center on your computer. That is all you have to do. And if you forget your password? There's a "forgot password" button too. This is exactly how Steam works, and that's why it's incredibly popular (because it's convenient). Valve afraid of piracy past that point? No. Doesn't give a shit.

There's no "forgot iLok button" though. Nope. You don't get to use what you paid for if you made a small mistake.

Besides, I wouldn't really care that much if it was $10 or even $15. But no, it's $50. Half as much as the product you're buying in some cases.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Neblix

[Meteo Xavier]

You're not really wanting to understand it either, you're just being arrogant and aggressive.

It is not a manufacturer's problem if you lose their physical product. All things on Earth run the risk of being lost, whether it's physical or not. That you purchased it anyway means you accepted that risk. That wasn't THEIR mistake, that was YOURS. A password can be retrieved (or, in most cases, just rewritten) because it's not a physical product, it is simply text. Yes, it sucks that it's not cheaper, but you still accepted the risk and terms when you bought it.

I mean, you don't see (reasonable) people bitching to Apple "I lost my iPad, why can't I have a new one for $15?" why would that be different here? Professional companies do not simply create things to be difficult, that's just an excuse irritable consumers use to explain why elements are difficult without having to do any real thought process of their own. They do things like that because, in their positions of all things company-related, they could not see or think of a better option. That doesn't make it easier on the consumer end, no, but making up biased opinions and calling them facts doesn't do anything constructive either.

DRM sucks, but that was going to be a natural function of the internet sooner or later anyway. No point in fanning flames on it, just need to keep reworking how it works for better consumer use.

[HoboKa]

If dongles were really as bad as critics made it out to be, EWQL wouldn't be used by scores of amateurs and professionals. That's basic common sense.

The real bottom line you're supposed to be getting here, Alex, is that dongles are not for everybody. Some people really freak out about them, as you can see here, and others don't really mind them at all. After that, it's just people wanking back and forth on the theoretical academics of the product and later the argument itself, as you can also see here.

There are better newer options than EWQL right now like that Da Capo I showed you earlier, and you may do better with that.

Yeah, I'm going to probably avoid anything that requires an iLok and any other company/product that has any other form of grey-area DRM - I'm fine with just using a reg-key, even if I have to download it again from an online account. And Native Instruments has a business model that I much prefer (at least for now), so I'll stick with them.

Also, I LOL'd at the "After that, it's just people wanking back and forth on the theoretical academics of the product and later the argument itself, as you can also see here."

I think you nailed it on the head. Bunch of pretentious blow-hards who argue about business ethics and other academia - wait, I guess that's all of us here.

/end thread

[avaris]

You're not really wanting to understand it either, you're just being arrogant and aggressive.

I mean, you don't see (reasonable) people bitching to Apple "I lost my iPad, why can't I have a new one for $15?" why would that be different here? Professional companies do not simply create things to be difficult, that's just an excuse irritable consumers use to explain why elements are difficult without having to do any real thought process of their own. They do things like that because, in their positions of all things company-related, they could not see or think of a better option. That doesn't make it easier on the consumer end, no, but making up biased opinions and calling them facts doesn't do anything constructive either.

DRM sucks, but that was going to be a natural function of the internet sooner or later anyway. No point in fanning flames on it, just need to keep reworking how it works for better consumer use.

Agreed and agreed. BTW Neblix I specifically stated it was waves and not NI. Btw the ilok software is wicked easy to use. Plus to install a piece of software all u have to do is install. No serial number, no response and check over the internet. Also takes 2 seconds to transfer a license. Those are some good experiences. And not every ilok license has to be on the dongle. A lot of them can be on your computer.

I wish there aren't dongles. But that just isn't reality.

To be honest dude grow up. We all are being very patient and nice to you despite how your attitude towards us. And we have been patient for years, and much nicer than we could be.

Edited December 4, 2013 by avaris

[Moseph]

I, for one, would like to see a return to Monkey Island's Dial-A-Pirate copy-protection. EastWest, are you listening?

Besides, I wouldn't really care that much if it was $10 or even $15. But no, it's $50. Half as much as the product you're buying in some cases.

I expect that the price of iLoks is a repercussion of their foothold in the professional market. $50 is much less of a big deal when you have thousands of dollars worth of iLok'd software rather than just $100. It's the hobbyist who gets the most screwed here, unfortunately.