Help Recording a Chamber Concert

[Blaine]

Hello again everyone! Recently some friends of mine asked if I could record some concerts for them and I find myself in need of some advice. I recorded a concert for the group once sometime last year, and I guess they were pretty happy with the results, so they asked if I could do it again. I agreed, but as I've talked with them it looks like this might become a more frequent occurrence, so I wanted to ask some advice on equipment to look into getting (both short-term and long-term) so that I wouldn't have to keep borrowing random equipment from them (and so I could give them something of a little better quality).

To give some more info, the group is a small chamber group. Here's the specific instrumentation:

1 Violin

1 Viola

1 Cello

1 Double Bass

1 Oboe

1 Clarinet/Bass Clarinet

1 French Horn

1 Piano

The last time I recorded one of their concerts I borrowed an MXL 990 with a tall stand from the clarinet player, which I put in front of the group, and a Zoom H2 from the oboist that I stuck a bit behind them (the concert was in a church). The 990 was plugged into my Steinberg UR22, which was connected to my MacBook, and I recorded it with a beta version of FL studio for Mac. The recording from the Zoom I mixed in afterwards. Overall, I was fairly happy with the results, but I think things could be improved.

So, there are two concerts coming up. One is just a clarinet quartet and the other is the whole group (doing a number of smaller pieces, so the seating changes). I have access to the same equipment as before, but as I mentioned I'd like to give them something that's a little better quality. My knowledge on live recording and the equipment involved is unfortunately lacking quite a bit, so I'm not exactly sure about how to achieve this.

For one, things were only in partial stereo last time (curtesy of the Zoom), so I was thinking of trying to make things full stereo. I know I need at least two mics upfront instead of one to do this, should I buy another 990? Or should I look into getting a pair of another brand/type of mic? Is this even necessary? I also noticed last time that the 990 wasn't the best at picking up all of the instruments, piano and horn specifically (the low end was weak as well). Having the Zoom compensated for this, but are there any mics better suited to recording varied instrument groups like this? Also, would it be better to setup 2 of the same mic in front of the group or 2 different mics?

Another thing I noticed the last time I recorded was that it took a long time for the audio to process after I stopped recording (but really only when I was recording for over 3-5 minutes). What I mean by this is, I would hit record, they would play, then I would stop when they finished and it would take anywhere from 30 seconds to a couple minutes for the audio to appear within FL studio and for me to able to do things again without potentially crashing the program. I wasn't sure if this was caused by my audio interface, my computer, or the fact that I was running everything through a beta FL on a Mac... I'll be using Reaper for the upcoming concerts, so that might fix things, but any insight into this would be appreciated.

But yeah, I feel a bit like a fish out of water with this, since I've basically been teaching myself everything about music production and related stuff. I've found plenty of stuff on recording in a studio, or recording bands and stuff live, but nothing really for this kind of setting. Any insight, advice, or general recommendations would be much appreciated! If there are any questions or clarifications needed, ask away.

P.S. The next two concerts are also taking place in medium sized to sort-of-large sized churches (though this probably won't always be the case, this is how it is for now). I'm really not sure if this affects the kinds of mics to look into, but I assume it does, at least to some extent.

P.P.S. To be more clear on my intentions, no one in the group has a problem with me using their equipment to record them (nor do I). However, I feel like having one mono mic in front and one stereo mic in back is not a very good setup (it feels kind of janky/amateur to me, but maybe it isn't), so I'd like to try to add to/improve this. Additionally, there's the possibility that I might start recording other similar groups where I don't have access to someone else's equipment, so it would be nice to be somewhat prepared if that were to happen.

P.P.P.S. Here are some pieces from the last concert for examples/reference:

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

[timaeus222]

All three examples are private.

[theshaggyfreak]

It all really depends on your budget. If you're on a budget, I'd look at the Rode M5 stereo pair which is about $200 USD. If you can afford more, I'd look at getting the Rode NT5 matched pair which is about $430 USD.

As far as technique goes, this makes for some good reading.

https://www.academia.edu/693259/An_Investigation_into_Stereo_Microphone_Techniques_and_their_Applications

[Nabeel Ansari]

If you were ready to spend loads of cash, you ideally want a LOT of mics. But I'll start small and get bigger.

1. One for the room, one for right in front of the ensemble.

2. Expanding from that, give one mic to each family of instruments. String mic, woodwind mic, the horn mic, and the piano mic.

3. Expanding from that for even more control, give every instrument their own mic.

The idea is that if you want to turn something up or down, like the "strings", just turn its mic down. If you want to turn the strings down but accent the violin more by raising it, you also have that capability. This way, you're not confined to adjusting a family all together but you still have that option if you're lazy or want to do more general adjustments.

The third group of mics I suggested is EXTREMELY PEDANTIC. For budget constraints or fear that you have too much control to know what to do with, then instead of doing it for every performer, maybe just do it on the important ones. One on the violin, one on the horn. On bigger ensembles with repeated instruments, you may only give one of the violins a personal mic, because one is all you need to get an accent to cut through a mix.

Also, knowing good mic technique is important, so I recommend looking at what Shaggy posted. You don't have to master that document right now; you'll notice marginal improvements to your recordings by even just skimming it and getting the general idea. Good recordings are the most essential thing, because if you don't get them everything you do in post will be patching small band-aids on gaping wounds.

Biggest things to consider in multi-mic sessions are leakage and phase relationships. Sometimes your recordings will set better together just by inverting the phase of some of them. Phase cancellation has a VERY powerful effect on timbre.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Neblix

[theshaggyfreak]

Another technique for recording orchestral type stuff that isn't mentioned in that article I linked to to is the decca tree. This one can be a bit difficult to setup, though, unless you have the right equipment. I personally would just stick with a stereo configuration of some sort. The more mics you have...the more phasing issues you'll have to deal with and those are never fun.

[Nabeel Ansari]

The more mics you have...the more phasing issues you'll have to deal with and those are never fun.

Forgot to address this, but yeah. If you're worried about this or don't have experience dealing with it, stick with the number 1 group of mics in my post. You don't even really need the room mic if you have confidence in your own reverberation tools.

[Blaine]

All three examples are private.

Sorry about that, I was trying to set it up so only people with the links could listen, but I don't think Soundcloud has that option (at least not in a convenient form...). Should be fixed now.

It all really depends on your budget. If you're on a budget, I'd look at the Rode M5 stereo pair which is about $200 USD. If you can afford more, I'd look at getting the Rode NT5 matched pair which is about $430 USD.

As far as technique goes, this makes for some good reading.

https://www.academia.edu/693259/An_Investigation_into_Stereo_Microphone_Techniques_and_their_Applications

I'll definitely be checking out that link tomorrow, thanks a bunch.

If you were ready to spend loads of cash, you ideally want a LOT of mics. But I'll start small and get bigger.

1. One for the room, one for right in front of the ensemble.

2. Expanding from that, give one mic to each family of instruments. String mic, woodwind mic, the horn mic, and the piano mic.

3. Expanding from that for even more control, give every instrument their own mic.

The idea is that if you want to turn something up or down, like the "strings", just turn its mic down. If you want to turn the strings down but accent the violin more by raising it, you also have that capability. This way, you're not confined to adjusting a family all together but you still have that option if you're lazy or want to do more general adjustments.

The third group of mics I suggested is EXTREMELY PEDANTIC. For budget constraints or fear that you have too much control to know what to do with, then instead of doing it for every performer, maybe just do it on the important ones. One on the violin, one on the horn. On bigger ensembles with repeated instruments, you may only give one of the violins a personal mic, because one is all you need to get an accent to cut through a mix.

Also, knowing good mic technique is important, so I recommend looking at what Shaggy posted. You don't have to master that document right now; you'll notice marginal improvements to your recordings by even just skimming it and getting the general idea. Good recordings are the most essential thing, because if you don't get them everything you do in post will be patching small band-aids on gaping wounds.

Biggest things to consider in multi-mic sessions are leakage and phase relationships. Sometimes your recordings will set better together just by inverting the phase of some of them. Phase cancellation has a VERY powerful effect on timbre.

Lots of useful advice in there, so thank you! I do know at least a little bit about phase cancellation, but only enough to get myself in trouble, I think. One of the reasons I wanted to ask for some advice.

I think option 1 is really what I'm looking for right now, but it's looks like what I already have? When you say one room mic and one mic in front of the ensemble, this would still only give you a mono signal right? Unless the front mic records in stereo I guess, which seems to be what Shaggy was suggesting with a stereo pair.

Unfortunately it's late for me right now and I need to get to sleep for work tomorrow I'll be sure to read through that link that Shaggy posted though (It'll probably answer some of the questions I have at the moment), and then I'll probably be back with more questions. Thanks for the advice so far!

[Blaine]

Sorry for the double post!

Anyways, thanks for the article shaggy, it was very helpful! It's definitely something I'll be going back to for reference frequently.

So, with new information gained, here's my current dilemma. I have a budget of $300-$400. What Shaggy was suggesting in the earlier post (as I understand it), would be two mics in an XY setup. This seems to be a stable and easy to run option (and it also fits within my budget, which is nice). However, one of the issues I had with my previous concert recording was the low end response, which it looks like this setup will not fix. An alternative that would solve this issue looks to be using two omni mics as a spaced pair. I think this will also achieve a sound closer to what I'm looking for (in theory at least), which is a (somewhat) wider, fuller sound but not neccessarily a lot of definition/control. Based on what I've gotten from the group while talking to them about this, they're not looking for super quality studio recordings, they want demos that are live recordings and that sound like live recordings (but still good, obviously). In other words, they'd prefer that I "mess with" the recordings as little as possible right now. They also don't feel comfortable having a lot of mics all up in their business while performing (right now at least), they'd prefer something as un-intrusive as possible.

So, I need two mics. Shaggy's original suggestion is still under consideration, but I think I'd prefer to try the spaced pair setup. I could try a decca tree as well I guess, using two new mics in conjunction with the 990 I have access to, but I would definitely need a new audio interface for that, as mine only has two inputs Any suggestions on two omni mics within the range of $300-$400 total?

If you think I shouldn't use the spaced pair setup, any suggestions on how to solve the issue of poor low end quality? Should I use the Zoom as a sort-of room mic again?

Thanks for the help so far everyone, I'm feeling much more confident about setting all of this up

[theshaggyfreak]

For that budget, I would really look at the two packages I suggested. I think this will give you the best set of options for your situation. Having a matched pair can let you experiment with different setup configurations unlike a stereo mic where you're stuck with a single placement. Something else you can experiment with adding into that mix is a PZM boundary mic such as this one: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SoundGrabber

You could mix that in to your stereo configuration and it would probably help the low end response as well as give a bit of ambience.

[Blaine]

For that budget, I would really look at the two packages I suggested. I think this will give you the best set of options for your situation. Having a matched pair can let you experiment with different setup configurations unlike a stereo mic where you're stuck with a single placement. Something else you can experiment with adding into that mix is a PZM boundary mic such as this one: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SoundGrabber

You could mix that in to your stereo configuration and it would probably help the low end response as well as give a bit of ambience.

Yeah, I did some (very quick and not in depth at all) searching, and it seems that omni mics in my price range are not going to be very good. So, I think I'll take your suggestion with the Rode mics. The PZM seems interesting, I'll have to keep that in mind. I'm not sure if I'll be able to get everything at once since there's some other random equipment I think I'm going to need as well (like a long extension chord to power my laptop), but we'll see. The only thing that worries me about it is the fact that I would have to place it on the ground in front of the performers. Since they are often changing group configuration mid-concert, I feel like there would be a high chance for the mic to get stepped on or bumped

Thanks again for the sound (I'm sorry) advice though! This was all very helpful

[theshaggyfreak]

You wouldn't actually have to put the boundary mic that close the players. It basically picks up vibrations from whatever surface you put it on.

[timaeus222]

About your examples...

Example 1 - Feels narrow, as if all the instrumentalists were sitting bunched together. There's a little trebly background noise.

Example 2 - Same

Example 3 - There's some more dimension to this than in 1. More explicitly, the piano kind of seems farther away than the trumpets, for example. It's better than 1, but still somewhat narrow.

Just so that someone has listened to and addressed those examples.

[Blaine]

About your examples...

Example 1 - Feels narrow, as if all the instrumentalists were sitting bunched together. There's a little trebly background noise.

Example 2 - Same

Example 3 - There's some more dimension to this than in 1. More explicitly, the piano kind of seems farther away than the trumpets, for example. It's better than 1, but still somewhat narrow.

Just so that someone has listened to and addressed those examples.

Thanks for the insight. For the first two, I'm guessing you're talking about the high hiss? I couldn't get rid of that in post without compromising the instrument sound quality. I might have had the mic gain a little too high, but part of that was me trying to compensate for the fact that I wasn't picking up much low end (I think anyway, it HAS been awhile since I did these) And yes, I'm sure the narrowness comes from the fact that I recorded the main mic in mono, and the room mic in stereo. So there's sort of a stereo reverb with mono sound I guess? I'm not sure if it's the right way to explain it, but I am aware of it, and that's what I aim to fix in this next bout of concert recordings Also, by "farther than the trumpets", do you mean farther than the single horn player? None of those examples had trumpets in them (and there are none in the group). The Brahms trio is just one violin, one french horn, one piano. I'm assuming that's what you mean, and the extra space has to do with what the room mic picked up compared to the main mic (it picked up the horn much more clearly, likely because it's bell was facing the mic almost directly). I'll have to keep that set-up in mind, though there won't be horn on the upcoming concerts

Anyways, thanks again for the comments. It's always reassuring to know that what I hear is in line with what someone else hears. My ears and general audio knowledge/awareness have really improved since I did these so I'm excited to get another crack at it

[timaeus222]

Also, by "farther than the trumpets", do you mean farther than the single horn player? None of those examples had trumpets in them (and there are none in the group). The Brahms trio is just one violin, one french horn, one piano. I'm assuming that's what you mean, and the extra space has to do with what the room mic picked up compared to the main mic (it picked up the horn much more clearly, likely because it's bell was facing the mic almost directly). I'll have to keep that set-up in mind, though there won't be horn on the upcoming concerts

Anyways, thanks again for the comments. It's always reassuring to know that what I hear is in line with what someone else hears. My ears and general audio knowledge/awareness have really improved since I did these so I'm excited to get another crack at it

Hah, yeah, single french horn player. =P