Orchestral Redemption EP

[ShadowRaz]

Heyy. Produced and composed 5 tracks for an EP publish with a name Orchestral Redemption.

Link to the upload:

https://shadowraz.bandcamp.com/album/orchestral-redemption-ep

I had troubles on some tracks and certain amount of lack of motivation to really focus on these at certain times so this EP has taken like 3 months or so to build whilst i have been making all kinds of other music and stuff. But still tried my best to make good end results apart from just enjoying the composing and designing

Would appreciate honest feedback on all the tracks. Haven't published these anywhere else so i still i have opportunity to fix stuff. It's sometimes easier to hear mistakes if someone else points them out rather than noticing them on my own since it is basically a different world to listen as the producer compared to as someone who did not build everything in the track.

Isn't it funny though? As in a producer tends to listen some individual stuff on own track, all the parts and sounds somehow separately, individual instruments, sound designs etc, always on which the producer focuses on, but can't somehow just hear it through others ears or even listen to it as a "whole track" so to speak. I can't be the only one who has this kind of thing, since a producer just can't hear own track as someone else, unless they have a freaking memory loss.

[timaeus222]

Yes, it takes a while to be able to be objective about your own music, but it's possible - I'm getting there. The important thing is to realize that not everyone "gets" your sound design nearly as much as a memorable composition, so if you have good sound design and good composition, it's probably going to appeal to a greater audience.

• "Redemption" - seems overcompressed. I like the composition itself as it develops, but the details get a bit lost since the limiter pushes down on the mix almost the whole time. Either that or you have a lot of master-track compression.
• "Puzzle" - Not exactly overcompressed, but maybe overly-compressed or overly-sidechained. Whenever the drums hit really hard, the everything gets pushed down and it becomes hard to actually hear what notes are going on.
• "Drums on Fire" - Generally, a percussion-dominant track like this is hard to remember, because you can't hum it. I liked the breakdown, but I do hear a bit of overcompression whenever the drums play.
• "Restless" - I like the softer parts, as they are relatively clean. By the 1-minute mark, I think this is the best track on this EP. It actually presents good glitching without obscuring the melody or tonal elements in the mix. I also don't hear significant overcompression yet. However, there could be more low-midrange bass motion, instead of just sub bass and midrange, as the bass currently sounds hollow in that respect (resulting in a soundscape that isn't as full as it could be). Also, 3:52 doesn't hit nearly as hard as you made me anticipate, as there is overcompression there, and the drums just don't sound strong. The ending just kinda dies out - it could be extended a bit more.
• "Salvation" - Similar remarks as with "Drums on Fire"; has some overcompression, and the composition is hard to get attached to.

The style kinda reminds me of this. Maybe you'll find some inspiration from it. This is also another interesting dubstep remix that has some orchestral components. You don't have to just use strings.

[ShadowRaz]

Hmm, interesting how you mention that basically every track is overcompressed in some way.. Well there is the Fruity Limiter on the master mixer channel every time i start a new project on which i never touch at all.. might i assume it affects the final result? Occasionally i also just drag down the main level on a single parametric EQ 2 so the sound wouldn't "clip" too much.. i have noticed how many, many tracks nowadays cross the "borders" of the audio file, my stuff included, i'm not quite sure what kind of a effect it has.. This was a picture i captured of one projects audio files when i was pondering the thing i mean. Same track. On the top one the waveform crosses the "borders" a lot, then i tried to "compress" it down so it wouldn't do that. Or is this particular thing called limiting? I'm not sure actually..

 

 

 

[ShadowRaz]

I also listened to the dubstep remixes you linked. Quite good actually both of them, but personally in dubstep genre, i prefer more "brutal" style, like the tracks on the mix i posted in the 'Making a Mix' topic which i started not so long ago in light of making a "mixtape" on which you also replied. One source of my inspiration in the dubstep stuff. Get angry at life and produce some angry dubstep am i right though  embrace the restless feeling by making stuff that changes often and then drink some coffee and become more hyperactive

So on Redemption, there i have merely the fruity limiter that is there from the start, Eq 2 for small master tweaking and master level is a bit down on it and stereo enchancer which is unrelated to the matter, On Puzzle i have basically the same stuff but in that project i had a weird invisible compression problem which occurred when i clicked on the master channel but when i clicked any other channel, it vanished. Also i did sidechain the melody for it among the glitch.. it can affect the weirdness too so it seems like the drums do it.. But otherwise the settings are basically same on every track with exception of tweaking, the normal limiter is down there from the start and then i always add parametric eq2 and try to adjust stuff. On Salvation i did have Fruity Compressor and just slightly tweaked gain down. The Fruity limiter which is on master channel seems to make the track a lot more loud.. Oh and on Restless.. i did not like the transition either when the third dnb beat drop starts. merely added a drone and a whip sound basically.. they did not come out sounding that good when it's supposed to drop harder.. i have always had problems with transitions as you pointed out at some point for me

That's basically it.

Oh and the thing about Drums on Fire not being easy to remember and stuff.. i don't get it why does music have to be easy to remember and the kind that it could be hummed or something so it would be good? Do people necessarily have to get a song stuck in their head so that they would appreciate it? Isn't it more annoying than a good "feature".. i dunno

 

What should i do in order to get the sound right?

[timaeus222]

Basically, the issues are:

• You've raised the Gain within Fruity Limiter, boosting your music against the Ceiling, promoting overcompression.
• You don't seem to be using Fruity Compressor as a compressor, but as a volume slider, basically, which doesn't make anything better or worse.
• Maximus has compressor characteristics, so I would avoid using Maximus unless/until you know how to use it.

-----

In the image:

• On the first waveform, yes, your song is past the 0 dB mark, which, without context, could mean a lot of clipping, or a lot of overcompression.
• On the second waveform, it looks like it went past 0 dB, and then you lowered the volume after-the-fact (retaining the clipped waveform shape), meaning that it's still too loud in terms of dB RMS (average loudness)---the literal volume is just quieter.
• The third waveform is probably fine, as it isn't hitting 0 dB, and it wasn't lowered in volume after hitting 0 dB either.

On the first video:

• When you raised the Gain on the EQ pre-limiter (0:17), the overcompression became even more apparent, as the volume is raised before it reaches the limiter. Raising the Gain within Fruity Limiter also raises it against the Ceiling, which adds more overcompression. It results in peaks getting squashed in louder parts of the mix whenever they run into the Ceiling (pushing the quieter instruments down a bit as well, as Fruity Limiter has no internal filter).
  
  So, if you don't adjust any settings on Fruity Limiter, you should either use a different limiter (like TLs-Pocket Limiter), or finish your mix on low Gain without a limiter and "master" your track with some post-rendering compression (which requires that you know how to do that).
  
  Or, if you raise the Ceiling on Fruity Limiter (which is at 0 dB by default), it'll be harder to overcompress (since the Ceiling is higher, assuming the Gain wasn't altered), but you will run into clipping issues near 0 dB more easily, so it's more of a risky fix to do that. It makes Fruity Limiter more transparent, but then depends on you knowing what clipping sounds like.
   
• I don't think you need Stereo Enhancer on the Master track. You know what that "STEREO SEP" knob actually does, right? It adjusts the phase of your L/R input, creating phase cancellation that either separates your L/R input (counterclockwise) or merges them into mono (clockwise). You shouldn't need to do much, if any of that; you should have already prepared your stereo field while doing your regular mixing.
  
  I sometimes use it to narrow my drums if they are oddly-panned out-of-the-box, but other than that, not much.
  
  At 1:04, you do have a volume difference when toggling it on/off, so you should probably turn it off so you know exactly what's boosting/lowering the mix. I like to be able to keep track of what's going on in my music.
   
• At 1:54, you shouldn't just check Fruity Limiter. You also have Maximus, which can perform compression, which means it can contribute to your overcompression.
• At 3:20, Fruity Compressor, Maximus, and Fruity Limiter should be turned off to compare how it sounds with and without them. All three of them are some form of compressor, so they can contribute to overcompression.

On the second video:

• At 0:53, you also have the Gain raised within Fruity Limiter, which again, promotes overcompression by boosting the volume against the Ceiling.
• At 1:49, while you do have Fruity Compressor lowering the Gain, with those particular settings, that actually doesn't add overcompression; it just lowers the volume going into it. If you reset the Gain to 0 dB and toggle on/off, it shouldn't sound that different either way. There is a slight limiting characteristic to Fruity Compressor that alters the waveform a little (barely), but there isn't usually an audible difference when you load the default configuration of Fruity Compressor.
  
  Since you weren't really using Fruity Compressor for compression, you didn't need it. The way you were using it, it pretty much acts as a volume slider.

It's not to say compressors are inherently bad, but right now, you should reset their settings (by reloading them) and experiment more with them before you finalize your music.

[ShadowRaz]

Thank you for the info. I shall really look into these aspects you mentioned. I usually prefer composing and producing and designing something rather fast, instead of trying to fine tune everything perfectly, which i should do in order to get better final results.

Also about the compression thing (apart from the usual sidechain compression), i never have gotten it completely so i shall look into it now, found couple of videos at SeamlessR's youtube channel which seem to be really helpful on both, Fruity Limiter and Maximus compression. (by the way, the way you emphasize some words with thickening seems to be more pleasant to read for some reason) But yeah, haven't learned it properly yet, and i should and will do it by watching some lessons from the internet, the same way i basically have learned everything i know currently. With the exception of coming here for example and you helping me like now so i thank you again. 

Do you have any idea why most tracks nowadays then peak over the 0dB limit? And why do they sound so good even still.. for example the mix i made..

As you can see, all the audio files in the dubstep mix go way past 0dB.

 

Edit. I suppose this is apparently called "sausage compression" perhaps? At least i understood it as such from the compression video i have looked now

 

Edit part 2. Tried to get the Pocket limiter. It works on 32-bit FL Studio, but my FLS crashes immediately when i open it on 64-bit and as all my projects take at least 10Gb of Ram which is a standard minimum, i can't use 32-bit ever so it's useless.

 

Edit 3, isn't it funny though how the writing thingie extends over the borders? It comes like that when the big ass picture is there

[ShadowRaz]

On 7/31/2016 at 0:13 AM, timaeus222 said:

Fruity Compressor, Maximus, and Fruity Limiter should be turned off to compare how it sounds with and without them. All three of them are some form of compressor, so they can contribute to overcompression.

Here's the second drop without stereo enhancer, maximus or fruity limiter. Also noticed that my wobble sound was mono so went ahead and added unisono not much else. Left Fruity Compressor to gain down the sound because it CLIPPED HELLA LOT without it. But only gain in fruity compressor.

Edit. just finished rendering the DnB drop without Stereo Enhancer, Maximus, Fruity Limiter and even took out Fruity Compressor, and then dialed the sound down with EQ 2 so it won't clip ridiculously

Also tried to improve the transition part but even still it's not that good.. hmm.. maybe should compose ever so slightly different lead notes or something..

[timaeus222]

"10 GB RAM" isn't exactly a "standard minimum". I've never gone over 4 GB (except through occasional bridging), and still manage to get by with music I enjoy. It may just be a problem with the choices of samples; Serum takes up about 200 MB per instance, and you seem to use it a lot; on the other hand, I use Zebra2, which takes maybe 50 MB per instance.

As for whether you should use 64-bit or 32-bit FL, I have been using 32-bit FL for years, with mostly 32-bit plugins, and I haven't had any crashing issues unless I open an old project file and the data becomes managed differently in a newer version of FL, causing me to go over 4 GB in that newer version. It may even be a good exercise for you to try using 32-bit FL as a way to force yourself to be conservative on your RAM usage, if you have a lot of 32-bit plugins. If you've somehow came to believe that 10 GB is normal, then that sounds like a problem to me.

-----

Yep, the overcompression is fixed; now if a drop isn't as strong as you want it, then it's just due to how you made it and the samples you chose, and not because you pushed against the limiter Ceiling. And right now, I do think that it's just a limitation based on what samples you chose for your drums.

As I mentioned before, using the Layer tool is extremely helpful to create strong, punchy drums. zircon made a tutorial on this kind of thing here:

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As for going above 0 dB, it's as I mentioned earlier; using a tolerant limiter, like TLs-Pocket Limiter, or FabFilter Pro-L, allows you to push against 0 dB more than something like Fruity Limiter does by default. You don't necessarily need post-render master-track compression to get loud, and you don't necessarily need to get loud to make good music. But you do need to be at a good loudness.

This would be the loudest song I could listen to for extended periods of time:

If something you listen to is louder than this, it's probably too loud.

[ShadowRaz]

Well it is for me nowadays  At least almost 10Gb minimum in full length tracks. Not all though

Why should i be conservative about RAM usage though if i have 24Gb of it since i bought it mainly for FL Studio anyways? It would be pointless to have as much if i didn't use it. Better yet, i would need more RAM especially since i have started graphics design, and that requires RAM a lot too, and my multiprocessing is disabled for renders too so it takes a lot more time. Just checked that the video for full Restless with all the effects, takes 6 hours to render. Yes, 6 hours for 4 and a half minute video.. And also yes, Serum eats most of it on Fl Studio, but i really do prefer it mostly for my sound designs. Second hardest for RAM (can be harder than Serum depending on the instruments i use) is Kontakt 5. I simply could not do what i do with only 4Gb of ram unless i rendered audio files basically from everything and then deleted the plugins.. and then if i would need to change something i would be screwed especially on sound design unless i had saved them all and the exported midis as well so i wouldn't have to recompose.. What a bustle that would be though. 

And as i have talked about Restless project now, that particular project takes up 13994Mb so around 14Gb. Edit. when i opened the project today it was merely 12Gb anymore.. weird

This is literally the first plugin i can't use because it's 32-bit. Not a huge loss though since there are quite a number of compressor choices anyways

 

Also i swear you have mentioned the exact same thing for me directly or i have seen similar post from you saying about that particular track how it is the loudest track, a track should be. I do wonder where it was.. whatever.

[timaeus222]

Being conservative about RAM doesn't necessarily mean you don't use a lot of it. It just means you use it efficiently. If you can use a less RAM-intensive synth to create the same sound, why use a more RAM-intensive synth to make that sound? That's the point.

[ShadowRaz]

Ah indeed, i agree, which is why i often make some pluck or lead sounds on Massive for example and effects, but i have never gotten saw melodies or growls and drones sound nearly as good no, matter how much i try to adjust detune and unisons for saw melodies or how much i modulate growls and drones. Also i did bring up Harmor as one addition not so long ago as it is quite powerful plugin too for sound designs. I did test it long ago but tried to understand it recently better on my 'Through the Darkness' project. That lead you hear on the DnB drop of Restless is the same one, Harmor lead design.

fun fact, Harmor also allows to import waveforms for the oscillators in it. It has quite a pack of features, i am nowhere near understanding Harmor enough.. should also look into that more even though i know the basics of it.

[timaeus222]

I think that means you can stand to practice on more than mostly Serum; I agree that some sounds made in Serum are not quite possible in other synths, but in principle, you can get pretty much the same sound from different approaches, and so, there shouldn't be any reason why you can't get similar sounds on two different synths (besides how certain synths have filter models that others don't, and the different synthesis engines may make tones that inherently sound more "pure" or more "dirty").

For instance, a Reese bass is basically just octave detuned saws with a notch filter LFO; you can technically make a Reese bass, whether it's on Serum, or Massive, or Zebra2. Not to mention, Serum can import Massive's wavetables, so whatever Massive can do, Serum can as well. Meaning, if you make a sound you can make on Massive, it's worth considering whether you should just make that on Massive.

Thinking about synthesis when it comes to the basic principles on how to construct a sound, rather than the habits you've formed on how to make the sound, can help you spread your skills across multiple resources.

-----

Back to the topic of your EP, it might help you to watch this video, just to see how you can work with Fruity Limiter anyways with little to no overcompression.

Basically, with a higher Ceiling (which I did mention earlier was one solution), you can go above 0 dB without overcompression. I did also mention that it was a bit risky, since now you can get clipping if you go too far. That's why I gave you a suggested loudness standard, so that you don't go boosting too loudly.

[ShadowRaz]

Yes. Although i personally still can't always think of a way, how to create some sounds with Massive, which i can create with Serum. I guess i should still try at least if necessary, only that way i can learn is it possible.

Boy did i notice some peaks immediately on Restless after i turned off the compression. I started mixing and mastering the track again, did not get where i wanted yesterday, i shall continue today and move on to other tracks in the EP. Especially mixing seems to be important since some of my individual mixer channels are peaking occasionally or otherwise the EQ settings i have added, boost some frequencies, and hence they are over loud compared to other sounds.

It's fun practice to try to manage without any compression, but if necessary, i shall try to compress more effectively so it won't become overcompressed though. As long as the final result would be good

 

Oh and by the way, i had no idea of such sound which is named reese bass. I was under the impression that kind of sound is basically called distorted bass but little did i know it has a name. Was watching a tutorial about it now (although i do basically know how to create distorted basses, even still, a tutorial can't hurt) since it could be more exciting bass for DnB parts. Better than the usual type i tend to design, just have to test out all kinds of stuff.