MC Final Sigma
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Posts posted by MC Final Sigma
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Zelda is constantly strong in SS in the sense that she is always brave. She always accepts her fate of "godess" even with the consequences it has. Getting captured by Ghirahim at the end of the game doesn't make her weak, especially because Ghirahim is a very strong villain. Link only manages to defeat him because he uses the super powerful Master Sword, not because he's some sort of super strong male. In fact, Link's grand (and possibly only) strength is his courage.
I think we're getting sidetracked here. I will concede SS for the sake of argument, but it's still only one Zelda game that doesn't use this sexist trope. I see your SS and raise you TLoZ, AoL, ALttP, OoT, WW, OoA/OoS, MC, FSA, TP, PH, and to a lesser extent ST.
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My point is that you're the one saying that, not the story. Using Skyward Sword as an example again, the story is saying "Zelda needs to be protected because the dark forces of ultimate evil are after her and she's not a trained fighter like other characters are", not "Link needs to protect Zelda because he's a strong, powerful male and she's a weak, frail female". Other characters in the game who are both female and fighters kick significantly more ass than Link does. Impa actually berates Link when she has to step in and save Zelda, because that's supposed to be his job (as "the chosen hero of the Goddess", not as "a man"). Both Impa and Faron (separately) fight Ghirahim to a standstill at a time when Ghirahim could easily kill Link (but doesn't, because he prefers to toy with him instead). There are background characters (like the female Knight Academy student) that show women in strong positions, as well, and it's never remarked that this is unusual or anything like that.
Bravo for SS. I can point to countless more examples where this is not the case - not to mention that SS exists in a context in which Zelda is an oldschool damsel. What would have been truly refreshing is to see her as consistently strong, which would have been a truly significant change for the series.
If you have one element of the story that may be construed as sexist if you look at it a certain way, versus a variety of definitely non-sexist elements (showing women as strong, positive characters), then calling the work as a whole sexist is ridiculous. It does more harm than good, because if you cry "sexism!" at every little thing, then people will tune you out -- so when you try to discuss a major issue, people will still ignore you.This episode of Tropes vs. Women was about oldschool games, in many of which the only woman is the damsel. It will be interesting to see how the next episode addresses modern games with more characters in general. Also, you've yet to show why constant disempowerment of women is a "little thing."
EDIT: Also no one said the whole games are sexist; they're only sexist insofar as they participate in the trope.
And let me ask again: when, if ever, is it acceptable to have a portrayal of a "weak" female character? Must all females in fictional works be presented as exactly equal in every way with males? Where do you draw the line between what's acceptable storytelling and what's sexist?I already addressed this in my last post (a part not directed at you).
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Now, we all know the trope is a bloody pulp by now. But my other main issue with her generic statement, is that the tropes use is still valid (lazy, but valid). It's not a sexist, degrading stereotype toward women in and of itself. It's how the female is treated and portrayed before and after capture, and how the hero sees/treats her, that will make it sexist/demeaning/objectifying, or not.
The trope has nothing to do with how the game characters view the woman - it's all about how we, the players, view the woman. It is degrading to women because this trope intimates 1) that women are helpless, and 2) that women can only be saved by men. It doesn't matter if these women are beloved wives, sisters, grandmas, what have you - they're still pitiful wimps who can't escape their situation (although male characters always can).
And I simply don't agree that the simple act of a woman being captured in a video game, and unable/unwilling to fight back or escape, is degrading, or somehow bolsters the idea that women are weak in any tangible, realistic way. Only the weakest of minds would watch Zelda get kidnapped and say, "See? I told you women are weak," or use it as an stepping stone to rant about how supposedly helpless and needy women are. The rest of us know that the woman being kidnapped in that individual game is a single, fake woman... not a representation of all real women.You're right that individual instances of the DiD trope are not necessarily sexist on their own, but what makes the DiD trope sexist is that it's a trope. It is legitimate for female characters to be rescued by male characters some of the time - say, half of the time - but when 90% of the time it's a man rescuing a woman, even the "weakest of minds" can see that trend (consciously or not, mind you). By continually reinforcing a narrative in which a woman is rendered indefinitely helpless and can only be saved by a man, it becomes sexist. Period.
That the games Anita spoke of only focused on that kind of woman for their simplistic fairy tale-like stories is unfortunate. But again, it's a simple tale for simple games that chose to focus on the "rescue your love/the woman" as the only linear plot line. That's not a defense by me, it's just why it was used; for simplicity's sake. It's not proclaiming that real women are like the woman in the game, telling you to treat women like they're helpless, or backing up how other countries see women as lesser individuals. So slamming the real world history of women (be it in America, or other countries) into the game's painfully basic story just comes across as over analyzing what what's being presented, and allowing personal biases/stances/agendas to color the story in unintended ways (on either side of the issue).It doesn't matter why game developers use this trope, the trope is toxic in and of itself. To repeat, the trope suggests through constant repetition that women are ultimately weak, feeble, and helpless - even supposedly strong ones like Zelda. Only men can bail them out, but men can help themselves. It may be interesting for historical reasons to discuss why the trope was used or became popular, but it does not exonerate these games from the charge - the trope is fucking sexist.
I wasn't saying that sexism isn't real or that feminism isn't a worthy cause, just that not everything that can be read as sexist (eg, damsel in distress) is actually sexist in all cases. If you get up in arms about relatively harmless things (like Mario saving Peach or Link saving Zelda), you can actually do damage to the overall message -- that some media is sexist and we shouldn't put up with that kind of shit -- by overreacting to every single example of something that isn't exactly gender neutral.I fail to see how the literal dis-empowerment of women in hundreds of digital narratives is somehow "relatively harmless." What it's doing is amplifying sexist tropes in "real" life and preparing young boys and girls who do play these games to think in gendered ways. Or how do you think gender is learned - an instruction manual? Stories are a huge deal, especially when 90% of them agree that women are powerless and men are not.
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I find it interesting that some on the feminism side of the argument rant about the idea of "damsels in distress" as if it were on the same level as the woman being captured, raped, beaten and forced to watch hours of Swamp Loggers.
Is it an overused trope? Sure. It's been around for centuries after all. But to devote an entire 20-plus minute episode to it seems a bit much. It's not that deep and dark an idea that it needs such a lengthy video... especially when you're focused on '80s and '90s mainstream video games. Most times, a violent and brutal capturing wasn't depicted (there were some of course, like Double Dragon). More often than not, the woman was simply snatched away, or captured off-screen, with nothing pointing to her being violated in some way during or after her abduction. So the anger that some have over the "damsels" idea when speaking of older games seems misplaced.
It's not a bad start to the video series, but it really could have been trimmed and made more effective without having to repeat various points. Make the point, show examples, delve into the history with said examples, and end with a reference back to the main point. The more you beat your message over the head of those watching, the greater the chance you'll have of losing them before the video's over.
What's sexist about the DID trope is not that it glorifies rape or whatever, it's that it insinuates that women are powerless objects who need men to save them. The video wasn't all that repetitive, either - to be sure, there was a unifying topic, but she develops it in different ways throughout.
Also, I'd say anything that's been around for centuries and that we're still sticking into our stories today deserves more than a few 20-minute youtube videos about it.
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I never claimed to disagree with her, and in fact I don't. I'm simply questioning your claim that criticisms arise either from fanboyism or sexism.
I was using the general you. Anyway, what are some alternative reasons for disagreement? I think your evaluation sounds reasonable on the face of it, and in principle I agree that critics shouldn't be instantly branded. But in this case, we have a woman who is correct in diagnosing deeply entrenched sexism in videogames. Why so much hate? I can think of two reasons, which you mentioned. What else is there?
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Yeah, this is pretty much how I feel.
So anyone who has a criticism is automatically a sexist? Agree with her or you're sexist, is that what it has come to?
EDIT: I guess I missed the fanboy part, but still that's the vibe I get.
I'm being honest about ulterior motives. Otherwise, why would her getting (admittedly, very many) symbolic gestures of good will for a progressive cause arouse so much debate? Where's your outrage over how much actors, rappers, and athletes get paid?
And instead of dealing in the abstract, let's talk about your concrete disagreements. I'm willing to bet that any serious disagreement stems from sexism. It's not a mark of shame to be sexist, but it is shameful to remain so once you've been educated.
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Here's my two cents: there's a reason so many people want to harp on the amount of money she received from her kickstarter or how poor the production value is - her argument is rock-solid and convicting, and fanboys and closeted sexists are grasping at straws (straw men, in fact) to criticize her. If you feel you need to defend a game you love from slander, remember that you can enjoy a product while still maintaining moral scruples about its content; feminists do this all the time. I, for one, adore Mario and Zelda in much the same way Anita describes - I grew up with the series, but I recognize they have their issues. If you're an actual sexist, though, come out and admit it; we can have a much more fruitful discussion about how you justify gender inequality than we can about how much money it costs to make Internet videos.
Also, I would argue that the perceived "frivolity" of video games, fairy tales, et al does not mean they get to be immune from critical moral analysis - in fact, just the opposite: these stories creep into your mind and normalize explicit sexism in the "real" world. If anything, these children's games should receive more scrutiny, not a free pass, because they're more likely to influence you unknowing. If I wrote a manifesto entitled "On Women and Their Wimpy Utter-Helplessness," I doubt it would convince you; you probably wouldn't even read it. But you're much more likely to take away sexist impressions subconsciously, especially if you have a blast while doing it. That's why it's important to point out these patriarchal structures in stories so that we can consciously reject them as the poison that they are.
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Minish Cap is definitely not the most popular Zelda game, and a lot of its music is just remixes of old series music... but! This song is a real gem that I bet a lot of remixers could do a lot with. It's the theme for the Elemental Sanctuary, and it's just begging for more development:
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Sick! I loved every second of this. Dope flow, fantastic beat, and a very clever concept - I really dig the dialogue and narrative elements. 10/10!
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MC - Haven't had a chance to check your stuff out yet but your idea sounds good.
Are you capable of creating full track though or just the lyrics?
I am only capable of writing and performing lyrics, so I'll need a partner for the rest of the production.
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This is gorgeous! Great job!
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GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNDMAAAAAAAAA!
So I hear you need grandma songs.
I am a rapper, and if it isn't clear to the forums by now, I will rap on anything people would like to have a rapper on. So here's my concept for Grandma's remix. What if it were like a parody of 2Pac's "Dear Mama" (
) but plus one generation? It could discuss Link getting into childhood trouble like breaking pots, harassing pigs, or knocking down Sturgeon's shelves, but Grandma still raised him right and gave him soup and stuff. Now he's finally hit it big and is giving her his private cabana in gratitude.... I could probably cobble at least one such verse together on that subject. Anyone want to collaborate on that project?Alternatively, I could rap on another song if anyone needs it. Here are some samples of my work - poor audio quality, but I'm coming into better equipment soon; got a representative sample of different styles here:
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/take-some-time-off-sample
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/heros-rest-wip-sample-verse
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/sms-sample-verse-for-ocremix
(wrote the lyrics, first rapper) -
Well, I can't remix, but I am a rapper if anyone needs one. Good luck with this, I love the series and the title "Road Rage!"
Here are some samples of my work (excuse the shitty audio quality, I will be coming into better equipment shortly). They're all in pretty different styles and voices to give you an idea of my range:
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/take-some-time-off-sample
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/sms-sample-verse-for-ocremix
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/heros-rest-wip-sample-verse
(wrote all lyrics, am the first rapper) -
Um, is it way too late to express interest in this? Just saw the thread today and I'm new, but this looks awesome! I am a rapper and can do nothing but rap, remix-wise, but if anyone needs a rapper... I am one!
I'm down to rap on anything really, if you think rap would be a good direction to explore. My personal preferences, of course, align with franchises I'm more familiar with: Wario, Kirby, Mega Man, Donkey Kong, Yu-Gi-Oh!, and especially Zelda. I don't know how much work GuitahHeroe has done on it (I see no WIP is recorded, so I'm semi-hopeful), but I've got a Link's Awakening concept if you're interested. Will PM you! (I'm also familiar with Lemmings and Harvest Moon, though I'd have to think about concepts for those).
Also, a bit of searching has revealed to me that the NES game M.C. Kids has a GameBoy version called McDonaldland released in Europe. I've got lyrics and everything for an M.C. Kids rap song, so by all means, hit me up if that interests you. M.C. Kids has a kickass OST, too, for being a game that advertises obesity, and it would add more obscurity/diversity to the track listing.
Here are some samples of my work (excuse the shitty audio quality, I will be coming into better equipment shortly). They're all in pretty different styles and voices to give you an idea of my range:
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/take-some-time-off-sample
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/sms-sample-verse-for-ocremix
(wrote all lyrics, am the first rapper) -
Gotta admit, I prefer plain old "East vs. West." I also like the idea of having Japanese text on the JP art.
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Anyone else think about Wind Waker while listening to Track 4 - Clocktown? Excelent album so far well worth the wait this album made my day great.
Yes I did! Anyway, what an incredible album already - I can hardly wait for the rest. I have been looping this all day; I particularly love tracks 4-9. Thank you Theophany for doing the best Zelda title justice with this amazing project. Happy holidays!
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Welp, I went ahead and wrote and recorded a second verse for "Take Some Time Off," the Station Square remix (SA1). Excuse the sound quality on this, but now you all should have a very clear idea of how I would develop the track - cartoony and light-hearted (note that I could, however, change the voice if it's too grating; I personally think it's fun, though). So, uh, did I make the cut, coach? Give it to me straight!
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/tsto-verse-2-sample
(Also, incidentally, this strikes me as unusually fast for a rap beat. I love it, but I'd hope its full dopeness could be preserved if it were slowed down slightly.)
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So, I just really read this thread and listened to some of the WIPs, and I'm inspired to be a part of this. I'm a nobody on this site right now, but I'd love to take a crack at it all the same - in fact, Jordanius' Station Square instrumental is sick, I already have a verse written for it themed around his title, "take some time off." Will record it sometime and return soon.
EDIT: Here it is - pretty unique for me, but I had fun with it. I tried to establish how overworked/stressed out the Sonic crew is, and then advised them to take some time off. If you like this direction, Mr. Jordanius, I'd be delighted to collab on this as well - crazy good instrumental. Also, is this going to be an album/mixtape, or are we just using this as a springboard for Sonic hip hop remixes?
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/take-some-time-off-sample
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Well, I for one would love to shout "REMIX!" on the DK rap track, but that's my only idea for that concept so far. Good luck with this project!
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So, my concept is a McDonald's-themed rap song for the NES side-scroller M.C. Kids, which was actually quite fun and had a nice soundtrack. Here's a link to the entire OST:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0JJryrhMXA
I have a sample verse to pique interest; it's rather straightforward now but the style and delivery are liable to change. I haven't decided on an exact style yet, but I think chopped & screwed would be particularly fitting - just imagine a slow-moving, obese, gross & greasy feeling. The lyrics were fun to write, and I have many ideas for future verses - particularly concerning Big Mac's exploits among the fast food honeys, so maybe a weird & hopefully also gross fast food sex song is how this could develop. Standard hip hop is fine by me too, though - I'm open to your input! Here's the sample verse, with lyrics included in the link:
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/mc-kids-sample-verse-for
I have no musical skills outside of rapping, so I need someone who wants to make an M.C. Kids instrumental and handle the production end. Let me know if that sounds like you!
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When you say "beat" do you mean JUST the beat or does it have to be an entire production with accompaniment and such?
Excuse me, I do mean the entire production.
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EDIT: Got Damashi/Sir Jordanius brewing something up!
Hello! I mentioned this is another thread, but I want to rap on a Super Mario Sunshine remix and am looking for a partner(s) to make a beat to facilitate that. Right now, my concept is called "Tutti Frutti" - it's just a (hopefully) charming, not serious kind of song rapped by one "Pianta Joe," a fruit vendor in Delfino Plaza, advertising his wares to Mario.
I have uploaded an a capella sample verse for the song that hopefully captures the mood I'm going for. All lyrics, etc. are subject to change, of course, but maybe this will pique someone's interest. My apologies for the shitty recording quality - this is just a draft, but I can do better for the real thing. Here's the recording link:
http://soundcloud.com/mc-final-sigma/sms-sample-verse-for-ocremix
Lyrics are included below. Let me know if this appeals to you, or what you think!
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Well, I see no one's really bitten yet, but I think this is a cool idea - like a vocal album themed around new collaborations. Even if the album doesn't materialize, I think the site could use more vocal collaborations. I personally have heard some nice remixes on this site that I would love to rap over. Here are some ideas (although I'd undoubtedly need to get in touch with the original remixer):
Elegy of the Solipsist (http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR02381/) - I would rap on this in a heartbeat; I've actually thought about it. I'm thinking of a playful but bittersweet love song, Link to Marin, about how he loves her but ultimately knows (spoilers) she isn't real and will disappear if he awakens the Wind Fish
The Life and Death of the Mario Brothers (http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR02062/) - sick beat, this would be standard rap braggadocio
Insecta Robotica (
) - no ideas, but I've always liked this remix, nice beat(Additionally, I would be interested in writing a reggae song about Mario, although I can't think of an existing remix that would work. If someone could work on a Super Mario Sunshine beat with me, I have some lyrics for that as well.)
Also, just a thought: I don't know, but it seems to me that writers couldn't just write lyrics and give times when to deliver them - there's a lot in the delivery that's hard to convey in writing. Perhaps the writers could do their own shitty performance and send the audio to the real singer, who can get the feeling from the audio and then blow it away?
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Sorry if this has been suggested before, but would it be possible to get a genre tag for the different ReMixes? It would probably be a lot of work to add them, and I bet it would be difficult to classify certain songs, be they unique, multi-genre, or what have you. Perhaps the ReMixers themselves could choose a genre(s) upon submission? Alternatively, perhaps mixes could be searched by features, like specific tempos, vocals, etc. But anyway, it would be cool to get a list of all piano covers, rap songs, metal mixes, etc.
Tropes vs. Women / #GamerGate Conspiracies
in General Discussion
Posted
Here's the chart I'm working from:
http://zeldawiki.org/Timeline_Abbreviations#Main_Games