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YoungProdigy

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Posts posted by YoungProdigy

    Do you really need super realistic instruments to be a video game composer?

    in Music Composition & Production

    Posted

    Over the years, I've been composing a lot of music as a hobby. I might want to get into freelance composing. But one critique I've often heard is that the samples I use aren't realistic enough. Do you really need super realistic samples to be a video game composer?

    I mean I've seen a lot of very successful games where the music obviously wasn't made with realistic samples; such as Sonic Mania, Shovel Knight and various indie games.

    So I guess my question is, do I really need ultra realistic sample libraries to get into game composing?

    Is there still a market for retro video game music?

    in Music Composition & Production

    Posted

    14 hours ago, Meteo Xavier said:

    My response is going to come off rude, but I'm just confused by your question and not trying to be snide: you know there's quite a lot of indie-retro videogames all over the place these days, right? STEAM, GOG, Xbox Arcade, PS Indies, Nintendo eStore and many other places feature a lot of games that aren't AAA and have/want soundtracks to match.

    Now is it easier to get into that market than it is to do realistic sounding music? Probably not, but there is a very existent market for chiptunes and music that doesn't need to sound realistic to work.

    I'm aware that there are retro indie games. But I was asking about the marketability mostly. Are devs willing to pay a decent price for retro sounding music? By decent price I mean, around $50-$100 per track for exclusive rights.

    I'm asking, because I've heard from some people that devs aren't willingly to pay that much for retro sounding music. Those people are probably wrong though.

     

    Is there still a market for retro video game music?

    in Music Composition & Production

    Posted

    I know that most modern triple A games, either use real instruments or super realistic samples. But as far as video game music goes, is there still a market for retro music?

    When I talk about retro music; I'm referring to the sequenced music you would hear in older games. A lot of JRPG's from the PSX and PS2 era used sequenced music.

    My question is, do you guys think there's still a market for retro-sounding music in games?

     

    "A Formidable Enemy", my first song in EWQLSO.

    in Post Your Original Music!

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Slimy said:

    So what. We all have to do it, why should you be the exception?

    EWQLSO has legato, marcato, portamento and stacatto samples. I don't see the problem here.

    That song isn't trying to convey the same energy you were trying to convey with your song. When it starts to picks up, the orchestration gets thicker.

    You thought your thin orchestration was excusable because a random song in the Super Mario Galaxy OST with a completely different style was slightly comparable. You haven't convinced me.

    I really don't mean to gloat or anything, but can you at least make your orchestration sound as decent as I was able to get mine to sound while using EWQLSO before you decide the only way to proceed is to buy more shit?

    That's true, EWQL does have  a legato script. But when compared to real legato strings; it really doesn't sound as good. It has marcato and portamento but that's also limited. I've looked up videos on youtube of real violinists playing portamento and the script in EWQL, doesn't sound convincing. However, I've listened to some Hollywood Strings demos and those do sound much more realistic. The only things I find that sound convincing are short articulations such as stacatto and samples that fade out.

    I only hear thin orchestration at 0:44; I completely agree. I could definitely add some more strings in there.

    I'm not saying the only way is to buy more stuff. But what people seem to want is realism.  Convincing realism. At least, that's the impression I get. You can definitely make expressive strings. But even with CC11, I haven't come up with anything that would fool anyone. However, I've listened to the Hollywood Strings and they definitely sound closer to the real thing.

    I may certainly be wrong. Maybe EWQLSO can get super close to a live orchestra sound like that SMG song. Perhaps I'm missing something.

    I'm not saying that you shouldn't humanize and add expression to midi. No, I completely agree with that. You definitely should humanize and add expression to midis. I'm just saying that without expensive sample libraries, you shouldn't expect it to sound like a real orchestra.

    I made a new song, where I attempted to add more expression.

     

    What am I missing?

    "A Formidable Enemy", my first song in EWQLSO.

    in Post Your Original Music!

    Posted

    36 minutes ago, timaeus222 said:

    Listening to something and understanding something are two completely different things. I don't believe you processed them fully enough to train your brain. If you did, your music would be more refined. Just calling it like it is. You say it's "easier said than done", which is true, but it's not an excuse to spend less time on it and assume you'll never get it. Assuming you'll never get it is a great way to not get it.

    I do hear the similar styles, but you're still missing the expression present in the SMG example, real or not.

    • Your orchestra is a little distant, which means the close / room / hall mic mix is skewed towards the hall mic or you don't have the flexibility to mix all three together (as you would beneath Platinum version of EWQLSO I believe). Or your samples are pre-baked in reverb.
    • Your brass in particular is noticeably lacking dynamic crossfade automation, so the high-dynamic "blatty" tone to the brass is constantly there, without an emulated decrease in incoming breath via a lower dynamic (often done with CC1 or CC11). Even if you don't have dynamic crossfade, you could at least record volume event edits. It's not the same thing but it approximates it.
    • You haven't fully accounted for the slow attacks of certain articulations (particularly in the non-staccato brass and non-staccato strings), so the slow articulations are late. Therefore, it would help to shift those slow articulations back in time a little to make sure they are more on-rhythm.
    • As Slimy mentioned, a lot of your notes sound quantized. One way to help that is to write bigger chords, and offset the notes in your chords. This at once gives you a bigger sound and a bit more flexibility when it comes to aligning the note transients.

    When I said "I have listened to real orchestral arrangements", I meant that I understand how real orchestras are arranged.

    I agree with most of your feedback though. The samples in EWQL seem to have reverb on them by default. So when I load up samples, they automatically have reverb.

    My notes definitely could use some quantization.

    I don't think I should aim for a "real orchestra" sound with these samples. There's simply not enough convincing samples and scripts to do that.

    However, I fully agree that more can be done to make it sound less like a midi.

    I think my goal should be to write something "similar" to a real orchestra, but not 100% exact. So I should aim to have "similar" expressiveness to a real orchestra; but not 100% of the expressiveness of a real orchestra.

    "A Formidable Enemy", my first song in EWQLSO.

    in Post Your Original Music!

    Posted

    7 hours ago, Slimy said:

    Make your velocities varied. Just applying EWQLSO over a midi arrangement isn't going to improve it by much. Your samples would be much more effective if you put in the effort to emulate the real playing and sounds of an orchestra. All your instruments currently are perfectly quantized, and have no variation when repeating. At 0:29, your trumpet consistently has the same harsh attack for every note, without any expression. Not only does this sound unappealing, a real trumpet player would play the phrase with some expression.

    For example, at 0:29, at 0:39, the trumpet could get softer each note, then get louder right before the legato note.

    Here's a good rule of thumb for for general/subtle orchestral dynamics - higher notes can get higher velocity, and vice versa. For example, at 0:29, the trumpets can get louder on the C#.

    Also, you melody at 0:07 seems to come from an entirely different song. Your staccato strings seem to be in a minor key, but the melody is in major??

    Your orchestration sounds very thin. Where's all the chords? At 0:44, it sounds like the only parts of the string section you're using is a single violin and bass line. The entire song is like this. In orchestral arrangements, parts are written for entire sections, not just single instruments. You should listen to some orchestral recordings to hear how orchestral scores are usually written, (typically with many instruments blended together.) Watching videos/live will help you become familiar too.

    I'd also recommend becoming familiar with all the instruments commonly used in orchestras, so that it's easier to consider how instruments can work in sections.

    The velocities could be more varied. But the whole "emulate the real playing and sounds of an orchestra" thing is easier said than done. Real instruments can play several different articulations such as legato, marcato, portamento and stacatto. Convincing legato doesn't seem possible in EWQLSO.  Realistic marcato and portamento seems to be limited.

    I have listened to real orchestral recordings.

    This is a song by a real orchestra, orchestrated in a similar way:

     

    What makes video game developers pay for music?

    in Music Composition & Production

    Posted

    4 minutes ago, Skrypnyk said:

    A dev is making a quality game, doesn't want to use public domain or royalty free tunes, they want something original and specific to their vision and they want quality.

    Uhh, I guess they would listen to a piece and think "Damn, this is worth $100/minute or more!"

    Uhh, I guess they would listen to a piece and think "Damn, this is not worth $100/minute!"

    It's all subjective really.  A dev may not be able to afford $100/minute, and maybe they just want 2 tunes and they only have $40 bucks.  Maybe they don't want a minute worth of sounds so they don't have to justify the $100/minute.  It's important to know and be familiar with contracts that both parties can agree upon, but whether or not they want to pay you $100/minute is up to them.  Can they afford that?  Can they find someone cheaper?  Are you really worth $100/minute?  Are you willing to negotiate for opportunity and experience?  Are you willing to take a share of sales instead of $100/minute?

    Hmm, well I'm certainly confident in my ability to make original music.

    I do understand that sometimes a dev might not be able to afford it.

    I guess what I'm really asking is, do devs expect a certain sample quality for $100/minute?

    Would $100/minute be justified, if my samples weren't super realistic; but my compositions were good?

    What makes video game developers pay for music?

    in Music Composition & Production

    Posted

    Hey, YoungProdigy here. I'm looking to eventually compose music for video games for money.

    I hear that a pretty standard rate is $100/minute.

    But my question is, what actually makes a dev want to pay for music?

    Essentially I'm asking, what would make a dev think a person's music was worth $100/minute or more?

    Also, I want to ask, what would make a dev think a person's music was not worth $100/minute?

    Regaining the drive to write music?

    in Music Composition & Production

    Posted

    On 6/19/2016 at 10:48 PM, Virtual Boy said:

    When I was 16, I first discovered fruity loops, and I was completely enamored by the music writing process.  Sure I didn't know anything about theory or what made a good song, but I threw myself into it full force, writing as many bad songs as I pleased.

    And now I'm 22, and I'm writing less and less full songs.  I'll find myself wanting to write something and having no ideas, or having an idea but no way to continue it.  I've been going to college for music now for a few years, and I don't know anything else I'd want to do with my life.  I want to re-ignite my drive for music, I started playing guitar but I don't know if that'll help.  Anyone else ever been in that spot before?

    The "having an idea but no way to continue it" thing, can be fixed by studying the structure of other songs. Listen to your favorite songs and try to break down the structure. Once you understand the structure of those songs; try to emulate that structure in your own compositions.

    Also, I would just suggest you just search for articles or lessons on musical structure.

    If you already have an idea of what structure you want; it should be easy to continue the song.

    Composition vs Production? Which matters more?

    in Music Composition & Production

    Posted

    16 hours ago, Neblix said:

    Composition, regardless of genre. The false assumption here is assuming that composition is orthogonal (independent) as a concept to production, as if they don't influence each other.

    In genres like orchestral, the production is simpler because the arrangement takes care of filling the sonic space and providing interest. In genres like EDM, production itself becomes an element of composition as it begins to shape the timbre and dynamics of the music.

    "Composition" isn't just notes. That's, well, notes. Composition is literally a mixture of composite elements, the notes are primary, but rhythm, timbre, dynamics, articulation etc. are also compositional aspects. There are tradeoffs, and you can supplement deficiencies in one by enhancing another. Complextro, for example, is an advanced form of composition entirely based on rapid firing between different musical fragments with various timbres. Some people would consider that production, though, since it's often done by chopping up and processing different wave files.

    However, if we're just talking about production as a means to an end, i.e. "mixing and mastering" where we're EQing, balancing, just trying to get an overall good "quality" of sound, that's secondary to composition and its performance. You can still communicate a good idea through a murky lens. What you can't do is expect a bad idea to look shiny through a crystal clear lens.

    I agree that composition certainly can influence production. If a lot of  instruments are clashing in the arrangement; it will definitely effect the songs production.

    When I talk about "composition"; I'm referring to the actual notes and instruments of a midi sequence. Perhaps "sequencing" would be a better word. However, you are correct when you say that articulations and dynamics are also apart of composing. But usually I add articulations, dynamics and realism later.

    15 hours ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

    I would agree with what Neblix said, but I think there are cases where production is more important.

    For example, there is a composer on YouTube named JJay Berthume, dude is really good with "traditional" scores and he's really good at that John Williams, classic style. He said something in one of his videos that I think is definitely true. In a lot of video game scores, they tend to be more concerned with the composition aspects of the music. For example, Twilight Princess (lots of Nintendo in general) or Demon's Souls didn't really come out that long ago and people just love the music. The samples they used are absolute garbage, though. This is something I've still noticed in games and tons of soundtracks have an intentional retro aesthetic. 

    In film, the purpose of the music is ultimately to support the picture and to do so on incredibly tight deadlines. In such work, your ability to create something that sounds both very realistic and contextually appropriate timbres outweighs writing elaborate, memorable melodies because a lot of it can just be chords, drones and ambience. I think this is something that is obvious in modern film scores: They tend to be very minimalist, but hire the best orchestras and easily have some of the best sound design.  

    I've also noticed that some recent games do use unrealistic samples. So in a 2D retro RPG setting, would super-realistic sequencing be necessary?

    I understand that it's different for film music though. In modern film scores, film makers want something close to the real thing.

    Composition vs Production? Which matters more?

    in Music Composition & Production

    Posted

    3 hours ago, timaeus222 said:

    With orchestral pieces, you can do all your mixing ahead of time and save it as a template. That usually is enough, and you can focus on composition. But the mixing won't necessarily be perfect for every future composition, so you will have to do some tweaking to the mixing every now and then.

    As an example, obviously, if you have a lot of reverb, a fast orchestral composition will sound worse than a slower, more ambient orchestral composition, because faster notes will reverberate more often and smear together more.

    So, while the focus is still on composition for orchestral pieces, neglecting the mixing would be careless.

    I've actually never considered mixing ahead of time. I may try that in future compositions.

    Neglecting mixing is careless as you said. But I find personally that if I put more time into the actual composition; I have less energy to do the actual mixing.

    3 hours ago, MindWanderer said:

    And it depends what you mean by "people."  I think in most cases, a general listener would be more inclined to listen to a unique and enjoyable composition with mediocre production than a mediocre composition with fantastic production.  Audiophiles are often critical in the other direction, though.

    I read through almost all the posts in the Judges' Decisions forum here, and it's much more common for them to say, "This is a great arrangement, but the production could be improved" than "The production here is great, but the arrangement is dull."  But when they get one of the former, it's always, "I really love this, please improve it so we can get it on the site," but with the latter it's more like, "meh, this isn't really what we're looking for."  It's an interesting contrast--they seem to be much more enthusiastic about composition but much more critical about production.

    When I say "people" I'm mostly referring to game developers and casual listeners. Would an indie developer really care if the production was mediocre, if the arrangement was great?

    From what you've gathered from reading the judges' posts; it seems that composition matters more.

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