Though a lot of shit went down and a lot of it was bad, things might not be so bad. The .org community isn't new Unmod, but something else which is good in itself, and time might prove that the deletion of OCR unmod was actually beneficial to .org. If off topic fulfills any of the potential it has, I think most of what used to constitute unmod would be catered to. Now, if I understand things correctly (and feel free to correct me if I don't), this OT forum is made without direct relation to the primary activities and intents of OCR, or to phrase it differently: more of a community forum, and the its reason to exist is that it is people who make up OCR. People who not only wish to discuss topics more or less related to music or gaming, but all sorts of things with their friends they made through the common ground OCR has provided. Anyway the whole point of this is make it more clear where I'm coming from with the point I'm so painstakingly slowly am trying to make. If we have a staff who automatically asumes that discussing the future (or non-future as it were) of a community with what constitutes it would lead to more bad things than just suddenly ripping it away there is no possibility of making this off topic work in the long run. Converesly it's not that good if parts of the community nurtures a culture of resentment towards the staff simply because they cannot see the many positive things they do for the community. As many have pointed out much more eloquently than I can, one of the reasons things got this tense was due to the lack of interaction between the staff and large parts of the community. This leads me to a suggestion: In the forming of the new forum, why not let those who intend partaking in it have an active role in its forming? I know that there are some things that necesarily cannot be allowed, and that neither djp nor anyone else has some sort of obligation to the community, but I really think that inviting the future users of OT to have a say in what it's going to be about before its launch would help to alleviate some of the tension between staff and parts of the community. It would also probably help promoting a mutual understanding of what "the other side" wants from the new section of the OCR forums. Hopefully there won't even be a need of such dichotomous descriptions of the situation in the long run. For example the users of OT could be allowed to have opinions on who moderates it, or what additional rules to the absolute minimun that is required there should be.