[Videogames and Sexism]

so being a gentlemen to the girls isn't a good thing?

That depends on what you mean by "being a gentleman".

This is like the "Holding the door open for a woman isn't sexist!" thing. Yeah, maybe not in and of itself, but if you feel compelled to do it for women and only women, that's probably indicative of some sexist attitudes, because why the hell do only women deserve courtesy?

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Post a corresponding picture where the detailed outline of a mans dick can be seen through his tight spandex pants in a video game.

I can give you this and it's called Cho Aniki.

You apparently haven't heard of it. That pretty much says it all.

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Because those jokes make it sound as though women are inferior and only serve the purpose the jokes implies. Therefore, it's sexist.

But it's not as bad as violence against women, right? I mean, that's what matters, isn't it?

But you can have a game where you have a female protagonist who can be extremely intelligent, athletic, strong or has any desirable personality traits, but she happens to have a victoria's secret body as well. So that makes it just as sexist as the kitchen jokes apparently?

Do you realise what you're saying?

"Sure, you can have intelligent, strong, driven female characters, as long as they're sexually objectified too!"

And stop trying to pull the "but it's not as sexist as THIS" crap. It's pointless. Unless you're discussing a campaign to have all women in the world raped to death, there will always be something "more sexist". That doesn't make whatever you're talking about not sexist.

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1. Of course they do. Just not nearly as much as men seem to for some weird reason.

Haven't we established that gaming is a male-dominated hobby? Is it not true that there are many more men on this forum than women?

Male dominated hobby + Male dominated forum = More men talking about a thing than women!

This is a pointless argument to make anyway. So what if more men talk about it than women? If a thing is sexist, it's sexist. It doesn't matter whether a man or a woman points it out.

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Actually, wasn't AngelCityOutlaw the one who said:

You know what's sexist? All the internet jokes and shit about women and "the kitchen" "sandwiches" etc.

Come on dude, they're just harmless jokes! Are you saying this kind of thing's as bad as violence against women?! Madness!

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The thing that is really annoying about threads/discussions like these is that it's a bunch of men pretending they speak for the majority of women.

Actually, the thing that's really annoying about these discussions is

hordes of ignorant people folding their arms and saying "Well *I* don't see how any of this is sexist."

Has it occurred to you that women speak out against this stuff too? Because they do!

The second thing that is annoying is people pretending this

is like violence against women.

"So the dude calls black people niggers, so what, it's not like he's going around murdering them or anything!"

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bayonetta's body proportions are clearly a joke

Dude, I get where you're coming from, but given that Bayonetta exists against the backdrop that is "gaming in general", you can't really blame someone for not thinking it's a parody.

Heavy armour, man.

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The difference is racism means general hatred of a certain race,

the sexism being talked about at the moment isn't hatred at all, kinda the opposite really.

No. Racism/sexism/any kind of "ism" isn't just hatred. It's many things. In days gone by, a lot of people in America probably didn't "hate" black people, but they really shouldn't be in the same schools as the white kids, right? I mean, I've got nothing against them, but that's just how things are, right?

And, I mean, I don't hate women or anything, but they really should stick to being housewives. Nothing against them, really, I love women, but that's just their role in the world, right?

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You know what's sexist? All the internet jokes and shit about women and "the kitchen" "sandwiches" etc. Video games favouring hot, scantily clad women is really not "degrading".

Yes, actually, it is. It is sexual objectification. That is a degrading thing.

Are you people forgetting that the guys who make these games have wives and families of their own?

So what, having a family means you can't be sexist now?

Just because they emphasize sexuality does not mean they actually believe women to be nothing more than sex objects.

Irrelevant. I could flat out tell a woman to get back in the kitchen without actually believing that women belong in the kitchen. That doesn't magically make it okay to say it.

Don't be pedantic. My point is that the industry has been male-dominated since before we could even get to the point of making male-fantasy characters, when it was all pure text and abstract graphics with no stories or characters whatsoever. The sexism that we see today with female characters is a symptom, not a primary cause, of women not wanting to be involved. Make sense?

Okay, so let's go back to what you were saying earlier.

the solution is not forum threads and telling males to be less sexist. That's idealistic. It's to create an environment where more women want to get involved in the industry DESPITE any existing sexism, since simply having more of a gender balance will help address issues across the board.

1. We probably would have more discussion in that vein if these threads didn't invaribly attract hordes of ignorant people folding their arms and saying "Well *I* don't see how any of this is sexist."

2. You can, in fact, create this environment while also making men more aware of sexism. It's not one or the other.

EDIT:

No the argument is that if the character was really so offensive, his wife wouldn't have agreed.

In other words, "This one woman didn't find it offensive, therefore it must not be offensive. Because in order for something to be sexist, it must offend all women, everywhere, without fail."

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I'm not sure if this has been brought up, but there is also sexism towards men. Take your standard fps hero, such as Marcus Fenix. A grizzly, massive dude with a gravely voice.

MALE. POWER. FANTASY.

At least try and act like you're reading the thread!

It seems to me that whenever people discuss sexism in video games, or anywhere, they seem to neglect mentioning sexism towards men, which does exist.

Well it seems to ME that whenever people discuss racism against blacks they seem to neglect mentioning that racism towards WHITE people exists!

It's not like one is a much bigger and more widespread problem than the other or anything!

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When did I say it wasn't a problem?

If you aren't saying it isn't a problem, what are you saying? "Is anyone surprised that a male-dominated area turns out things that pander to men?" No! Not really! When did anyone say they were?

Keep in mind the video game/software industry has been around since the days when it was impossible to actually render a scantily-clad female to begin with.

Keep in mind that "scantily-clad females" are not the entirety of the problem.

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There is nothing wrong with sexy girls in games, comics etc. Yeah, sometimes it's a little too over the top, but the only legit issue here is people actually being offended by works of fiction.

Yeah, why would a black person find that KKK ethnic cleansing shooter offensive? It's only fiction! Grow a thicker skin, guys!

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Because girls don't play Call of Duty.

As an added note, I like how you and zircon seem to have this idea that women are genetically predisposed to not liking FPS games, rather than, I dunno, this being an issue with the whole male-dominant marketing thing. Again.

EDIT: And horrible misogynist online communities, of course.

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That female characters are often designed for the pleasure/satisfaction of males is pretty obvious when you consider that most people in the game industry are males. So, of course when you have primarily men making games, they are generally going to make games that appeal to them. That's why there are tons of adrenaline-pumping FPS action games and skimpy female outfits. Does anyone really disagree with this?

No, but so what? Just because something is an obvious consequence doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Being a man doesn't force you to design women with huge tits. The more people become aware of this issue, the more people are going to say "Hey, women might want to play this game too, maybe I should rein in the male-pandering a bit."

The solution is to find ways of getting females more involved with the game industry.

Except that the reason more women aren't involved in the game industry is basically "sexism".

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That depends on what you define as male eye candy. I think the battle-worn, Hollywood-rugged (real war wounds tend not to be as pleasant) male characters we see in games can be seen as attractive.

Again, though, that's a male power fantasy. There's no real way to gauge this universally, but polls often suggest that the big, rugged space-marine types are not favoured by women. Men designed for men, women designed for men.

And again, it's not just attractiveness that's the problem, it's objectification. If these rugged war heroes were going around in daft-looking armour designed to show off their asses, that would be one thing, but it rarely happens. Men are allowed to cover up. They are allowed to wear armour that looks like it'd actually protect them. Women get, you know, the video I posted earlier.

And unless you want to say that girls who have breast implants and/or show off their cleavage and/or stand with their hips stuck out are sexist, I don't see your point.

Are you even listening

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That doesn't explain why companies should put less attractive females in their games.

They have no problem doing it for men, so why the double-standard? Why do women have to default to eye-candy when men are allowed to run the gamut?.

Also, it's less about attractiveness and more about sexual objectification. It's not just "female characters are attractive", it's "female characters are attractive and have huge breasts and show off their cleavage and stand with their hips stuck out for no reason and so on and so forth". You can't look at each individual issue in a vacuum here.

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Is it realistic to see a lady with twig arms slinging around a great sword? Probably not.

It's not an issue of realism. You are the one who just said that characters should only be "unattractive" if there's a story reason for it, which is stupid in itself, but I'm also pointing out that often there is a "story reason" for a female character to not be a supermodel, and yet she still is. I wonder why.

The super badass stereotype is also an unrealistic standard to live up to that is very common in the media, and yet this doesn't seem to piss anyone off.

It's a male power fantasy. The men are designed for men. The women are also designed for men. This is the problem. It is not difficult to grasp.

Funny how gender roles and expectations are only wrong when they're female...and yet it's only men in this topic that are angry about it

You have zero understanding of this issue and should probably stop talking until that changes.

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Sexism in gaming? eh there's sexism everywhere, much like racism

Unless we're gonna all become politically correct about every little thing, the best thing to do is ignore it.

YEAH because that will totally improve the situation oh wait no it will not

there's nothing wrong with a girl having a pretty face, but if you're arguing that say, the example that Archaon just posted, is not pretty much just objectification of women, then you're just simply wrong

And let's bear in mind that this is a MMORPG. A game where you create your own character. Guys, you get the full gamut! You can be a pretty boy or a total badass, you choose! Look at all this cool armour you get! Women, you are tits and ass with a sword or maybe a staff. Want to play as one of the awesome

Too bad, they're male only. Who wants to play a big, bulky woman, right? But don't worry! We designed this race of cute little fairy people with kitty ears,

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I see no point in making something intentionally unattractive unless the story calls for it.

The story often does call for it! Women who should be buff, given their profession, are not! Women who fight with swords and things and therefore probably shouldn't leave vital areas exposed still wear armour that shows off their cleavage!

Also, just as an example. look at Kratos. That dude's got an ugly mug. Why? Would the story have been affected at all if he'd had a youthful, handsome face? No. They just designed him that way. But when you want to do the same thing for a female character, suddenly you need a "reason" for it, otherwise she should just be generically pretty.

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women don't stop playing videogames because they are sexist; they mostly just never start because society expresses that video games are not a thing for women to enjoy

Also, the problem doesn't end at non-gamer women. There are a lot of women who do enjoy video games and yet are still, oddly enough, put off by

This is HEAVY ARMOUR.

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But I didn't say that. I didn't even imply that.

I said The dichotomy of "cute but dumb girl/ugly, but capable girl" is such a goddamned farce in the first place.

So you're basically just arguing against strawmen, then.

The point isn't "we need more ugly girls", the point is "we need more female characters that aren't catered to a male ideal." A grizzled male warrior in a game will look the part, while a grizzled female warrior will look exactly like every other skimpily dressed female warrior except maybe with a scar. A small one. Can't have it affect her looks at all.

If the sole reason games put female characters in there is to please males then yeah, that could be considered sexist.

I'd have to stand on the other side and say that most games don't put female characters in there for that sole purpose. To say that the industry as a whole does that is narrow-minded.

I know a lot of the female characters in games are created with attractive features, but I refuse to believe that they were put in the for the sole purpose of eye candy. They were put in there for the story, and then made attractive.

Whether they were put there for the sole purpose of being eye-candy is irrelevant. They're still eye-candy. The design is still intended for a male audience..You still have strong, tough-looking men stood next to supermodel women, even though they're both supposed to be warriors . You still have men running around in actual armour while the women get steel swimsuits. You still have women in passive, damsel-in-distress/love interest roles while men have all the agency. And so on.

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Sexism is denying something or degrading someone based on their sex.

Finding, desiring, or designing something sexually or aesthetically attractive is not.

And?

If you think Ivy's hot, fine. That doesn't make you a sexist. If you think all women in all games should look like Ivy, regardless of how alienating it is to female gamers, then guess what?

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It's for a bunch of other reasons, each girl usually having their own personal reason to not be a gamer.

Nobody is suggesting that every woman who doesn't play games doesn't do so because games are sexist. Even if games were not sexist, plenty of women still wouldn't be into them, just as plenty of men aren't. That's fine. But the fact remains that gaming is still an extremely male-dominant hobby, and the reason for that is that it is sexist.

Sure, if you ask some random woman on the street why she doesn't play games, she probably won't say "Because they're sexist," but so what? What does that mean? Maybe she says something like "I just never felt like they were for me." Hmm. I wonder if that could be caused by games being marketed so heavily towards men and only men?

I love how "let's discuss this" becomes "let's white-knight and accuse others of being sexist and then gang up on them"

I love how "white knight" has become a catch-all term for "anyone with a viewpoint that works in favour of the accursed womankind".

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Was it not you who said that girls don't play games because the medium is sexist? Isn't that assuming all girls think alike as well? L2generalization.

There is a difference between saying "There are multiple factors in mainstream games and the gaming community that many women find alienating" and "I totally talked to this one girl who said big boobs are fine, so I don't know what you're arguing about!"

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Tensei and Bleck, I'm glad we're all on the same wavelength here but seriously, quit stealing my thunder

That is true, but the female mma fighter has tiny boobs (or at least the sports bra is compressing them).

No no, I wasn't saying they look the same. I was saying the opposite. Tifa is skinny game girl designed for men, other picture is actual powerfully built woman.