Clarinet, piano and cello recording

[Calum]

Tips on my mixing/recording of my composition for a small ensemble:

http://soundcloud.com/calumbowen/a-pleasant-walk-live

All were recorded in the same room.

We mic'd the piano with a pair of AKG C414s

The Clarinet with Sennheiser 421

Cello with a pair of AKG C451 and an Electrovoice RE20 - we had a tough time with the cello as the pizzicato/arco sounds were vastly different. I think the pizz sounds great but the arco not so much.

These mics were owned by the university studio so I can't tell you too much about them.

Let me know what you think about the composition/production elements of this.

Thank you,

Calum

[Calum]

bump. No comments of any kind?

[dannthr]

bump. No comments of any kind?

Hey man, interesting project.

I like the composition, a lot!

I'm not totally sold on the arrangement, there's so much tutti with the piano (generally in the beginning), it almost feels like the cello and the clari don't really have independent statements.

I can't help but wonder how it would sound if you pulled back the piano part, distilled it more, and let the instruments do their thing on their own--they're much stronger when they are on their own.

The cello has MASSIVE tuning issues, the arco is all over the place. Warming up, some dry runs, and multiple takes would probably be necessary to ensure the cello part was nailed.

The mix is weak, everything is generally forward and with the tutti heavy arrangement, the individual timbral elements of the instruments are masked to the point of loss of character, which I think is too much.

[Calum]

Hey man, interesting project.

I like the composition, a lot!

I'm not totally sold on the arrangement, there's so much tutti with the piano (generally in the beginning), it almost feels like the cello and the clari don't really have independent statements.

I can't help but wonder how it would sound if you pulled back the piano part, distilled it more, and let the instruments do their thing on their own--they're much stronger when they are on their own.

The cello has MASSIVE tuning issues, the arco is all over the place. Warming up, some dry runs, and multiple takes would probably be necessary to ensure the cello part was nailed.

The mix is weak, everything is generally forward and with the tutti heavy arrangement, the individual timbral elements of the instruments are masked to the point of loss of character, which I think is too much.

Thanks for the feedback . Yes, I do find it difficult to write for groups as small as three players as there's the obligation to "fill out the chord with each note etc." and you don't want it to sound empty. So I ended up with constant writing. Although it was a bit of a rush job to have something to record in the studio I would certainly considering letting the piano relax a little if i were to re-do this piece - got to get the idea that every note must be played all the time out of my head. I did want to avoid overly difficult or demanding parts for the others as we didn't have much time to rehearse/record.

Mmm, I agree on the cello - the player was far from a virtuoso - I even tried some pitch shifting/autotuning to sort out some of the issues - but yes, more time dedicated to practising that section may have reaped better results.

Thanks for the detailed feedback, I appreciate it! I will take all of these things into consideration when next writing and mixing for a small ensemble

[Fishy]

I can give you some mic tips.

For cello, the majority of engineers I know tend to stick a single large diaphragm condenser mic pointing somewhere at the joint between the neck and the body. The 414 you had would've been a better choice there.

Clarinets radiate lower frequencies omni directionally and their high frequencies straight forward out of the horn. So you can balance the highs and lows of the recorded sound very easily with mic position. If you want something brighter move in front of the horn etc. I would have use the other 414 for this.

451's as a pair on the piano, probably just inside the lid but not too close to the strings. Sounds like you want a fairly close sound for this.

Here's a bit of info on the mics, sorry if you know this already:

C414 I'm sure everyone knows at least a bit about. Large diaphragm condenser. Jack of all trades, master of none. Make's a solid choice for most instruments if you're stuck for options. Bass pick-up goes all the way down to 30Hz, which is awesome.

C451 is a small diaphragm condenser and was probably your best piano option there. In situations where even response is needed, small condensers tend to record a clean representation of what actually happened. This is useful for piano, as main pairs to record a whole ensemble with and as ambient mics.

EV RE20 is a large diaphragm dynamic microphone with a huge bass cut. It is designed for very close voice use. A lot of people erroneously use it for bassy instruments like cello and kick. It is really not useful for that. It is useful for a 'clicky' or boxy kick sound though.

The Senheiser 421 is another large diaphragm dynamic mic, famous for it's use as a tom mic on drum kits. Again there aren't a huge number of other uses for it.

Try to avoid dynamic microphones like the EV and the senheiser on classical instruments. They just don't cut it most of the time. They are useful for live sound because they have good rejection but for studio recording they're only useful for extremely loud instruments.

[Calum]

I can give you some mic tips.

For cello, the majority of engineers I know tend to stick a single large diaphragm condenser mic pointing somewhere at the joint between the neck and the body. The 414 you had would've been a better choice there.

Clarinets radiate lower frequencies omni directionally and their high frequencies straight forward out of the horn. So you can balance the highs and lows of the recorded sound very easily with mic position. If you want something brighter move in front of the horn etc. I would have use the other 414 for this.

451's as a pair on the piano, probably just inside the lid but not too close to the strings. Sounds like you want a fairly close sound for this.

Here's a bit of info on the mics, sorry if you know this already:

C414 I'm sure everyone knows at least a bit about. Large diaphragm condenser. Jack of all trades, master of none. Make's a solid choice for most instruments if you're stuck for options. Bass pick-up goes all the way down to 30Hz, which is awesome.

C451 is a small diaphragm condenser and was probably your best piano option there. In situations where even response is needed, small condensers tend to record a clean representation of what actually happened. This is useful for piano, as main pairs to record a whole ensemble with and as ambient mics.

EV RE20 is a large diaphragm dynamic microphone with a huge bass cut. It is designed for very close voice use. A lot of people erroneously use it for bassy instruments like cello and kick. It is really not useful for that. It is useful for a 'clicky' or boxy kick sound though.

The Senheiser 421 is another large diaphragm dynamic mic, famous for it's use as a tom mic on drum kits. Again there aren't a huge number of other uses for it.

Try to avoid dynamic microphones like the EV and the senheiser on classical instruments. They just don't cut it most of the time. They are useful for live sound because they have good rejection but for studio recording they're only useful for extremely loud instruments.

Thank you!! This is brilliant advice - a great resource for recording. So it seems the C414 is the top choice (out of the selection) for cello & clarinet (i will bare that in mind when i'm next in the studio). It's very interesting what you say about most of these mics. The tutor (although i'm not studying music tech - so i'm not sure if he's an ultra expert) seemed to say that the RE20 is good for everything - failed to mention the bass cut. I thought the 421 sounded good on the clarinet but i'll try a 414 next time and consider the position as well - it was more straight in front of the player so perhaps that made the tone less bright.

I was told some stuff about these mics but it's great to get a second opinion! Thanks fishy.

p.s. did you get to listen to my new wip for FF9 prima vista band?

[Fishy]

Well the 414 was top choice of the microphones you listed there. Like I said it's a good choice for anything, but not necessarily a great one.

The RE20 is not the best for anything in my opinion. It is easily the most expensive microphone of the 4 (probably more then the others combined) but definitely not the best.

I mean look at it's frequency response:

http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefiles/downloads/RE20%20Engineering%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

That is a ridiculous bass cut. Great if you're a booming radio announcer whos about to get compressed to hell and back but seriously. The cut starts at like 300Hz, that's way too high for a bassy instrument like a cello. You only need to look at that to realize what a niche mic it is.

EDIT: I should mention that their spec sheet does note two good uses for it. Inside a bass drum is a very boomy place to be, so you might like to use it in that situation. Most people also EQ the hell out of acoustic guitars, completely taking away everything from 400hz downwards. For that type of sound the RE20 does half the job for you and so might sound "better" immediately.

[Calum]

Well the 414 was top choice of the microphones you listed there. Like I said it's a good choice for anything, but not necessarily a great one.

The RE20 is not the best for anything in my opinion. It is easily the most expensive microphone of the 4 (probably more then the others combined) but definitely not the best.

I mean look at it's frequency response:

http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefiles/downloads/RE20%20Engineering%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

That is a ridiculous bass cut. Great if you're a booming radio announcer whos about to get compressed to hell and back but seriously. The cut starts at like 300Hz, that's way too high for a bassy instrument like a cello. You only need to look at that to realize what a niche mic it is.

EDIT: I should mention that their spec sheet does note two good uses for it. Inside a bass drum is a very boomy place to be, so you might like to use it in that situation. Most people also EQ the hell out of acoustic guitars, completely taking away everything from 400hz downwards. For that type of sound the RE20 does half the job for you and so might sound "better" immediately.

according to this it's 45-18,000hz - although i didn't read the whole page all the way through I couldn't find anything that said it cuts at 300hz? Was that the graph diagram? It looks like it but i'm not clear on what the dotted lines are and the normal ones... OK i think i get it - i can pick up between 45 - 18,000hz but because it almost pre-EQ's out the bass (300hz and below) those lower frequencies aren't really heard.

Ah OK - so because it cuts all the boomy low end, it'd be good inside a bass drum to get the click/more high end of the kick and perhaps you'd mic it slightly outside with a mic with more low frequency response?

This is all interesting - here was me thinking the RE20 is the king of all mics - at least blindly following what our tutor said - but I see it has quite a few limitations.

[Fishy]

Indeed. A little bit of reading on the microphones you have can reveal their good uses. Of course experimenting and listening can tell you a lot more.

Anyone who says 'this is the best mic for everything' clearly has no idea what their doing, which is harsh but they deserve some harshness for spreading misinformation to people who might believe them.

[Calum]

Very true.

Don't mean to be a pain but p.p.s jus' incase you didn't see:

p.s. did you get to listen to my new wip for FF9 prima vista band?

I inboxed you.

[dannthr]

I can give you some mic tips.

For cello, the majority of engineers I know tend to stick a single large diaphragm condenser mic pointing somewhere at the joint between the neck and the body. The 414 you had would've been a better choice there.

Clarinets radiate lower frequencies omni directionally and their high frequencies straight forward out of the horn. So you can balance the highs and lows of the recorded sound very easily with mic position. If you want something brighter move in front of the horn etc. I would have use the other 414 for this.

451's as a pair on the piano, probably just inside the lid but not too close to the strings. Sounds like you want a fairly close sound for this.

Here's a bit of info on the mics, sorry if you know this already:

C414 I'm sure everyone knows at least a bit about. Large diaphragm condenser. Jack of all trades, master of none. Make's a solid choice for most instruments if you're stuck for options. Bass pick-up goes all the way down to 30Hz, which is awesome.

C451 is a small diaphragm condenser and was probably your best piano option there. In situations where even response is needed, small condensers tend to record a clean representation of what actually happened. This is useful for piano, as main pairs to record a whole ensemble with and as ambient mics.

EV RE20 is a large diaphragm dynamic microphone with a huge bass cut. It is designed for very close voice use. A lot of people erroneously use it for bassy instruments like cello and kick. It is really not useful for that. It is useful for a 'clicky' or boxy kick sound though.

The Senheiser 421 is another large diaphragm dynamic mic, famous for it's use as a tom mic on drum kits. Again there aren't a huge number of other uses for it.

Try to avoid dynamic microphones like the EV and the senheiser on classical instruments. They just don't cut it most of the time. They are useful for live sound because they have good rejection but for studio recording they're only useful for extremely loud instruments.

This is excellent advice, with one exception, and that's the Clarinet sound projection.

The clarinet basically shifts between omni-like and projecting from the horn depending on how many holes are closed by the fingering. The lowest note on the clarinet projects straight out of the bottom, and then mid-way through there is a register change where a register hole is opened near the top, and the fingerings start over again from the bottom--at this register change, most of the projection will be out the horn again.

[Fishy]

lols, fair enough. Can't say I've noticed that, I'll listen out for it next time!