Romancing SaGa 3 - Katrina's Theme (sax cover)

[subversiveasset]

Even though I have marked this as "finished," please feel free to provide suggestions or review comments.

 

This is a cover of Katrina's Theme from Romancing Saga 3...I added a part that's original at the beginning (and then I brought it back midway in the song)...does it "work" or no?

 

My remix: https://soundcloud.com/andrewspriggs/romancing-saga-3-katrinas-theme

 

Original: 

[Bowlerhat]

Hey,

 

I like most of the original work in it, but some of the part sound a bit awkward melodically. Also there are quite some harmonic clashes in your writing. Tensions are nice, but not when you play them on the top of your voicing. Some minor parts are a bit out of tune as well. But overal it sounds nice!!

[subversiveasset]

Thanks for the comments and the criticisms! Unfortunately, I fear that I won't be able to get the most use out of it, since I guess I don't have the ear to hear it? (that's probably not really a good thing for a performer.) What are some times I should be looking at specifically for the harmonic clashes or the awkward melodies? Is it on all parts, or just some? 

 

(I just looked up voicing and wow, there's a lot I have to learn!)

[Bowlerhat]

Yeah, voicing is quite hard. I think what went wrong in your mix is that you tried to include too much things in it. It kind of makes sense that you want to fill the soundscape as much as possible because you only have saxes and drums, but you can't fit so much lines of the same kind of instruments into one phrase. I'll try to analyze some parts a bit, and explain what you could improve. 

 

Something that's really odd about this mix is that you voiced everything for 3 horns. It may seem logical, because you've got three horns. But it's odd because you don't have a bass, or guitar, or any other kind of other instrument other than those three horns. So you're missing all of the bass tones.

I'm not sure, but I'm going to assume you used an alto, tenor and bari. I'm not that familiar with saxes, so I could be wrong. But if my assumption is right, then I'd suggest to change the bari and tenor parts a bit. I think it'd be best to just have the bari play the bass chord tones. You could have a few lines in between, or leading from chord tone to chord tone, but at least give us, as the listeners, some harmonic context. Right now there is a lot of harmonic context missing, and it sounds quite empty. As for the tenor, when you're writing for 2 horns, the bari excluding, and you're using a lineair approach (since that's what you're doing), it's important that the two voices, when played above the chord tone, always imply the harmonic progression. That's also why it's important to have the bari play the chord tones. So, when the lead for example plays the third of the chord, the second voice could play the seventh, or perhaps the fifth. Not something like the sixth, or the tonic. And especially not the second or the fourth, since that clashes with the third. 

 

There are obviously quite some more things about voicing for 2 horns, but this is the thing that is going wrong the most. Your writing has a lot of countermelodies. Which is really nice, I especially like the last high alto line. But the melodies have to fit into the harmonic soundscape that you're creating. If it doesn't, it creates the clashing you've got right now. 

 

Also, for the tuning, it's especially in the baritone sax. For example at 00:59, but not only there. 

 

 

I hope this helped a bit!

[subversiveasset]

Thanks SO much for providing additional explanation. In terms of your comments on soundscape and voicing, I can see that my problem (and limitation) is a lot worse. I actually only have one instrument (an alto), but I write multiple parts based on to recreate some of the other sounds. For the bari sound, that's really just the alto shifted down an octave in my DAW. (In some of my earliest covers, I would try to do something similar to simulate a soprano sax, but going up in tone in a DAW sounds far worse than going down.) The tenor sound is just an alto part playing lower notes.

 

In general, when I arrange, I try to arrange any bari parts as if it can take the lowest parts from any original (e.g., bass). But that's apparently not working out so well, since as you say, I'm just missing bass tones.

 

Yet, that was originally my plan -- to use sax for as much as possible (excluding drums). Would you say that is just unworkable in the long term, and I should arrange to have bass (even if I have to get a VSTi for that)? I also got a clarinet to maybe add something different to the higher end, but learning how to play clarinet is a lot more difficult than I planned (haha).

 

I can hear the tuning problems now for the bari, so I can work on that.

 

I'm going to think and study really hard on your middle paragraph here for the specifics as to harmonic context, since I know that's stuff I need to know, but it's still all a foreign language to me now.

[Bowlerhat]

Hmm, it's an interesting approach. I didn't notice that you didn't use an actual baritone, but it is noticeable that the bari sounds less good, and more out of tune, then the other lines. So I wouldn't say it's a bad approach, but learning to play multiple saxes really has its advantages, and is a lot easier and better in the end.

I'm not sure a clarinet would add much in this mix. You don't really need much more at the higher end, imo. But, a clarinet is a really useful instrument, so I'd still advice to get better at it.

As for your bass problem, I think it wouldn't be nessecary to have a bass in it. If you arrange your bari sound better, then you already have a better overall sound. When I arrange, most of the time I give the Bari and bass the same lines. But, if you were to get a bass, then it'd be easier, arranging wise. I'd personally just ask a bassist to help me, as I don't know how VSTi's work, but that's just a matter of personal preference.

I think what's important to remember is that when you choose your instrumentation, it doesn't really matter what's usually used, or is easier to do. In the end it all comes down to what sound you're trying to get. Two weeks ago, I had a workshop from John Clayton, who is a really well known bass player and arranger for big band, and he told me: "There is no good or bad music. In the end, as a composer or arranger, you're trying to mirror the music inside your heart. And you can't judge someone's heart.". So if you imagine your mix to be something with a bass line, or with clarinets or whatever, then you should try to capture that sound. If you do not, then you should do whatever you can to get the sound you do desire.

As for voicing, it really is complicated. The feeling I get when I listen to your mix is that you don't really know what chords you're using and that you're just playing whatever sounds nice. Which isn't really how arranging works. I think that before jumping into voicing things, you first should get some information on music theory, and then especially seventh chords, tensions and all that stuff. And getting some experience with transcribing is nice as well. I don't know if you figured this song out by ear, or by midi/sheets/anything else, but you really should do everything by ear imo. You're a good musician, so I think you'd be able to do that with some practise. (If you didn't already).

Good luck!!