Trouble with phrasing (?)

[Meteo Xavier]

I think phrasing is the right word - my problem consists of moving from one part of a song to another and changing up rhythms and drum patterns. For now, I've mostly been able to coast by on building a decent beat and structure and using it throughout the whole of my song(s) and using crash and reverse cymbals to change parts, but thats all I really know how to do and I'm sick of it. I have been able to change up song parts decently before, but most of the time it just comes off very awkwardly and I really don't know what I'm doing right and what I'm doing wrong.

Here are some examples of what it is I'm curious about (say what you want about the songs themselves, I'm just using them as examples):

Smashing Pumpkin's TONIGHT TONIGHT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_f7LF3IiKI

This song uses a lot of rhythm changes that I'm curious about. At :43 and 2:36 especially, the sound almost completely drops from full strings and fast drumming to almost nothing. I keep trying to do this and it just comes off awkwardly, like there's something missing, yet when I listen to Smashing Pumpkins doing it, it seems to come off correctly.

Motoi Sakuraba's INCARNATION OF THE DEVIL

http://208.53.158.138/soundtracks/valkyrie-profile-original-sound-version/fpyvmzytes/239-incarnation-of-the-devil.mp3

Motoi knows how to change up his rhythms and song parts better than anyone I know, and he does it frequently in this song. There is also a sound "drop" here at 1:12 that he pulls off pretty well.

I'm wanting to know what the general rules, if any, about changing drums and sound structures so they come off well, or just what I need to or can do to get better at it and know what I'm doing. Any thoughts?

[Fray]

That's a really good question. You can do some things with drums (fills, cymbal hits) to signal a change, but there are really no set rules as to what makes a good transition. You've at least got a good ear for when something does work -- Tonight, Tonight has some fantastic transitions in it

Can you post some examples of things you're doing that don't seem to work? Maybe we could help you on a case-by-case basis.

Edit: oh, I forgot to mention, chord and/or key changes play a big role in how a transition sounds too. In fact they're probably the most important thing -- and there are general guidelines for what will sound good. Are you familiar with the circle of fifths and such?

[dannthr]

Just make sure the rhythm you want to change to is always there, just not heard until you want it to be.

Then it can emerge in any way that pleases you.

[Meteo Xavier]

Just make sure the rhythm you want to change to is always there, just not heard until you want it to be.

Then it can emerge in any way that pleases you.

I don't quite understand what that means. I'll try to find some examples of what I felt I did right and what I KNOW I did wrong. (excerpts, not the whole song)

[Meteo Xavier]

Ok, so here's what I have. The first list is excerpts that I felt I did correctly. with the other being ones I'm having trouble with.

http://www.savefile.com/files/898897

This one I changed the rhythm and had a proper sound drop and it sounded fine.

http://www.savefile.com/files/898896

This was basically just an exercise for changing rhythms that I felt I did correctly (the sound drop was an extraction error)

http://www.savefile.com/files/898892

This one I changed the sound right at :10 without it feeling like it was missing something, but then at :31 I mess up and something's missing.

This list is more my common mistakes.

http://www.savefile.com/files/898894

I like this change, but I can't complete the sound drop correctly.

http://www.savefile.com/files/898898

This one is a good example of me fudging up a drum change.

http://www.savefile.com/files/898900

And here I mess up the sound drop again.

I just don't understand what I did correct in the first three and messed up in the second. I don't think its a matter of samples, but as we know from our favorite SNES soundtracks, that really doesn't matter too much. I don't want to keep relying on bass piano and reverse/crash cymbals to let me change parts and instruments out. I need to learn how to do this properly.

[Mia]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'messing up the sound drop.' And I'm not sure how to help you.. but iono, maybe in that 3rd one, where it goes from thick triplet drumming to mellow e piano and strings, you could try putting a single hit of some sort of not-too-abrasive percussive sound on the downbeat, with a 3/16th delay, or something..

I guess what you're asking for help with, is, changing sections in such a way that it sounds more purposeful and less like 'screw you listener we're gonna rob you of the beat now.' ?

[Meteo Xavier]

Yeah, I'm just kinda making up my own phrases because I don't actually know what to call them. In this case, I'm calling it a sound drop when a song goes from lots of instruments swelling up the sound and then almost instantly cutting them off and just playing a few instruments. The example of this I posted is that Smashing Pumpkins video. I want to know how they pulled that off.

[dannthr]

Here's your chance to not only learn, but to learn how to teach yourself.

Analyze the smashing pumpkins example and explain to me, in this thread, WHAT is going on. Analyze the parts, the music, the structure, etc, and tell me what all the parts are doing and where they're going.

Just start with that.

[Kanthos]

To add to what dannthr said, just jumping in and trying to analyze the parts of a song isn't that difficult here. For one, it's a standard short rock song, not a 68-minute jazz epic or symphony Don't worry about particular language (I imagine you're familiar with the terms verse and chorus; you might not know what a bridge is), but try and figure out, overall, what's happening in the song.

Once you can do that, once you know the direction your song is going to take, then you can figure out what to emphasize. In rock, for example, something you'll hear fairly often is that the verses are quieter than the chorus, and this is usually done by having less "busy" parts for all instruments (i.e. playing less notes), and by using a lighter touch for the notes that are played, such as using a hi-hat rock beat on the drums. Drum fills in such a verse might be shorter and use more cymbals, especially if the drummer has splash or small-radius crash cymbals. In the chorus, the drummer might switch to the ride or might play the hi-hat with the cymbals open instead of closed, giving a louder sound, and might have bigger fills oriented more around the snare and toms than during the verse. The other parts might be playing more.

One thing you generally want to avoid is switching styles at odd places. The average listener should be able to figure out the parts of your song based on the instruments alone; if you do something like switch from hi-hat to ride partway through a verse, that just sounds bad.

[Meteo Xavier]

I'm mainly just coasting off of stuff I've picked up over countless hours of musical observation, thats why my terminology and songwriting ability has is spotty at best. I've not been able to find a correct way to learn it properly (though its not from lack of trying) so its all been DIY.

I'm just wondering if there was some obvious thing to do or remember when switching song parts that I just haven't found out about yet or if its genuinely a frustrating part of songwriting that all songwriters fight with. Its not a question of chords or notes (except perhaps the drums), its more a question of the sound execution.

Although Dann's comment seems awfully vague to be helpful, he might have the right answer - maybe I'm just not studying it hard enough.