Metal keyboard tone

[Lunahorum]

I really want to know how they get that tone. The metal bands children of bodom, dragon force, sonata arctica, ect all have the same type of lead keyboard tone.

I am trying to replicate it with synth 1.

It's close but theirs sounds more "poofy" It's hard to describe. Here is a demo and the synth 1 patch which you should place in C:\Program Files\Synth1\soundbank01\006.sy1 and rename the last part to whichever patch you want it to be.

http://h1.ripway.com/max97230/006.sy1

http://h1.ripway.com/max97230/synthdemo.mp3

edit:

I took a band pass sweep with the eq looking for "non poofy" sounds and found some around 200hz. I cut those with a notch filter and it sounds a little bit better, but it is still not quite the tone I am trying to mimic. Here is an example -

. Parental warning - lots of swearing.

[Harmony]

The intro to that song rocks...then it goes all typical metal and loses me around 0:58.

I'm sure more experienced ears would give you better advice, but assuming you're trying to mimic the synth at 2:34 and not the intro synth, what you have sounds good to me...if a little on the flimsy side. Have you tried beefing it up with some tight chorus and a little distortion?

[Lunahorum]

yes it has chorus, delay, and distortion. Maybe I need to run it through a real distortion stomp box instead of cheesy FL Distort

edit: and yes the one at 2:34

[Tensei]

I think I've managed to reproduce it in Reason to a certain extent, so if you like it(wait for the synth solo, I bust out the pitch wheel there), here's how I did it.

Very much like a DnB Reese bass, it's barely possible to recreate it with only one instance of a synth, you'll need to set up a lot more, because these patches tend to be complicated suckers. I always find it easier to have only one oscillator active on each of the instances, since it gives you very tight control over every single filter and LFO on it.

Layer 1: Saw wave. No attack, decay 1/2way, sustain 3/4ds of the way, barely any release, bit of portamento with a legato playstyle (should be exactly the same for the other layers), detune +12 cents, LP12 filter with cutoff almost all the way up and resonance at about 1/4. The lower register should sound a bit like the bass in Benny Bennassi's Satisfaction. Oh, be sure to turn off the internal delay and chorus effects, those will come last.

Now I don't know how to set this up in Synth 1, but I'm guessing you could just automate the LFO amount; Have the LFO set to OSC 1,2 (this controls the pitch), set the amount at 2-3 for now, and play around with the LFO speed until you've achieved something that can be considered a vibrato (Also, set the wave-form to a sine wave, gives the smoothest results). The best would obviously be to have the mod wheel control the amount of the LFO, but I have no idea how to set this up in FL. Do make sure you use the exact same LFO settings for the other layers.

Layer 2: Saw wave. Same ADSR settings as above, detune +4 cents, filter HP12, cutoff 1/4, resonance 1/2. Should result in a similar sound to the first instance, except it would have a very 'pressed' sound, sort of nasal, because of the resonance.

Layer 3: Square Wave! Same filter, portamento and ADSR settings as the very first layer, detune +4 cent, should result in a very clicky square wave which will make up most of the attack of the full patch.

Layer 4: Sine Wave, no filter at all (just set it to lp12 with a maximum cutoff and no res), tune 1 octave up, very high attack decay sustain settings, no release. Should sound like a fading in high tone, which is exactly what we want as feedback

Layer 5: Saw Wave, for some extra meat! Detune -1 Cent. LP 12 with a bit over 1/2 cutoff and no resonance, same ADSR as layer 1,2 and 3.

Now, for effects, I have a generous amount of overdrive/saturation on layers 2 and 3 and a unison effect on all layers except the sine wave (all unison controls in Synth 1 at 1/2). Now route all FX to a single mixer track, and put on some delay and reverb for a nice and wet sound (I'm sure you can figure out the specifics for yourself), some Blood Overdrive for added grit, and if necessary a compressor, equalizer and stereo imager to make it sit in the mix.

As for playing style, try to use the mod wheel on nearly every sustained note to give it an ample amount of vibrato, use the pitch wheel a LOT, not just for bending, but also for 'sliding into' notes and faking guitar tricks like dive-bombs. In a solo alternate between fast, scalar runs, arpeggial runs and sustained melodic notes, with lots of 'decorations' done by the pitch and mod wheel.

Whew, that was a long read, but I hope it was worth it. I haven't added the specifics about setting it up so you can trigger all the synths at once with the same piano roll, and I don't know about using the mod and pitch wheels in FL, but I'm sure someone here will be able to add that information to this

Oh, in terms of tone this might actually be closer to Dream Theater, but I sure like it and I hope you will too.

[Lunahorum]

Thanks it was very helpful. I know how to do in fl what you did. You just right click the lfo amplitude/amount and link it to the mod wheel controller. Is that what you do in reason?

Ya that 2nd octave overtone sine wave is straight up jordan rudess. He has an article on his site about making it. Has like 7 synths layered together and one of them is that sine wave "feedback" thing. cool way cool.

So when you have a filter in an oscillator, does the filter ever move up and down corresponding with the notes your are playing or does it just stick in one spot? To my ears, it sounds like it is staying in one spot, but I have beginner ears and just want to make sure.

I'll try this and post what I come up with. Thanki sai

edit: what is the difference between overdrive, saturation, drive, and distortion. Aren't they all the same thing?? (yes I googled it and all I found was a forum with people arguing over the same thing)

[Tensei]

Thanks it was very helpful. I know how to do in fl what you did. You just right click the lfo amplitude/amount and link it to the mod wheel controller. Is that what you do in reason?

Well Reason has something called a combinator which is a device that can accommodate all the synths in that you want, and play them like a single patch. It's really easy to connect the Mod Wheel from the combinator into all the LFOs of the individual synths.

edit: what is the difference between overdrive, saturation, drive, and distortion. Aren't they all the same thing?? (yes I googled it and all I found was a forum with people arguing over the same thing)

I always consider them to be as basically the same thing, though each one probably works very differently (which I don't really care about), and each one has a bit of a different character to it.

[Lunahorum]

that sounds really good. what guitar and drums are you using? Also, how do you make the kick drum sound clicky? Thanks a bunch.

ed:

boosting EQ to bring out that all important "click" sound. Since it's an "after the fact" sound, you don't have to worry about a big boost fucking with the phase of the other mics.

Usually, I'll put a pretty wide scoop in around 500hz, and a boost around 8-10k depending on the sound I'm after. That, and lots of compression. 15ms or so attack, and around 100ms release, with plenty of makeup gain. If you're using drumagog, one critical point: Remember to click on the "advanced" tab & pull back the "dynamic tracking" knob

I tried this, but it isn't quite right. Maybe I just have to play guitars and bass on top of the click kick to make it sound right?

[Tensei]

First you want my lead synth tone, now you want my production techniques?! my oh my...

Rhythm Guitars are recorded through Guitar Rig 2 (Because I like the recording flexibility of its loop machine), Lead Guitars are recorded through Amplitube 2 (Because I prefer it's rectifier sound to anything Guitar Rig 2 can do). Bass is the Broomstick Bass Demo ran through a distorted Guitar Rig 2 preset. Drums are a self-made Addictive Drums preset.

As for the kick, try this; Subtle compression (something like 2:1 or 3:1 ratio), BIG-ASS BOOST at 50-60 Hz (something like 10 dB), roll off everything below 45-50 Hz (depends where you boosted before). Now if you want the kick to pretty much dominate the mix (like it does in mine), give it another HUGE BOOST somewhere between 3000-5000 Hz. If you want it to be more subtle boost between 10k-12k Hz. I actually put distortion on the 3000-12k portion of the kick to give it even more of an agressive bite.

Finally, make sure it has a substantial 'scoop' between ~200/300-600/1000 Hz so you can accomodate the rest of the instruments in that frequency range (again, the final settings depend on how much you want the kick to dominate the mix). The instruments have to be set up around the kick so they don't start to mask each other out too much, I did it like this: Bass-> Rolled off at 70 Hz, Boosted around 400 Hz for presence, boosted around 1500-2000 Hz for attack. Guitars-> Rolled off at 200/250 Hz, boosted at 300/500 for fatter mids, boosted at 3000/4000 for bitier attack and crunch, Lo-passed at 7k to get rid of any annoying high-end.

I don't know why that guy goes on so much about heavy compression, especially at a 15 ms attack. Try it out for yourself, you'll notice that it cuts off all the body and even a part of the click. If anything, I would never go below a 30 ms attack for a kick, much less with any substantial amount of compression =/

[Tensei]

Edit: sorry double post

[Fray]

First you want my lead synth tone, now you want my production techniques?! my oh my...

Rhythm Guitars are recorded through Guitar Rig 2 (Because I like the recording flexibility of its loop machine), Lead Guitars are recorded through Amplitube 2 (Because I prefer it's rectifier sound to anything Guitar Rig 2 can do). Bass is the Broomstick Bass Demo ran through a distorted Guitar Rig 2 preset. Drums are a self-made Addictive Drums preset.

As for the kick, try this; Subtle compression (something like 2:1 or 3:1 ratio), BIG-ASS BOOST at 50-60 Hz (something like 10 dB), roll off everything below 45-50 Hz (depends where you boosted before). Now if you want the kick to pretty much dominate the mix (like it does in mine), give it another HUGE BOOST somewhere between 3000-5000 Hz. If you want it to be more subtle boost between 10k-12k Hz. I actually put distortion on the 3000-12k portion of the kick to give it even more of an agressive bite.

Finally, make sure it has a substantial 'scoop' between ~200/300-600/1000 Hz so you can accomodate the rest of the instruments in that frequency range (again, the final settings depend on how much you want the kick to dominate the mix). The instruments have to be set up around the kick so they don't start to mask each other out too much, I did it like this: Bass-> Rolled off at 70 Hz, Boosted around 400 Hz for presence, boosted around 1500-2000 Hz for attack. Guitars-> Rolled off at 200/250 Hz, boosted at 300/500 for fatter mids, boosted at 3000/4000 for bitier attack and crunch, Lo-passed at 7k to get rid of any annoying high-end.

I don't know why that guy goes on so much about heavy compression, especially at a 15 ms attack. Try it out for yourself, you'll notice that it cuts off all the body and even a part of the click. If anything, I would never go below a 30 ms attack for a kick, much less with any substantial amount of compression =/

You rock for for posting all this Tensei

Not sure who was going on about heavy compression, but I bet it has a lot to do with how the original recording sounded. Using a lot of compression on a sampled drum kit seems like a worse idea than it would be on a live kit. I totally agree that the 15ms attack seems kinda bad... maybe he was dealing with a really sloppy, boomy kick or something.

Out of curiousity, do you ever use side-chain the kick into a compressor on the bass? I did that on CHIPP's mix and it seemed to control things pretty well.

[Tensei]

Out of curiousity, do you ever use side-chain the kick into a compressor on the bass? I did that on CHIPP's mix and it seemed to control things pretty well.

No, I haven't ever tried sidechaining anything on an acoustic kit, but yes, if applied subtly, I can see it working. You just have to make sure it doesn't cut out the bass completely or that it doesn't start to pump like a Techno Beat

[Lunahorum]

I really appreciate all the help. I am slowly approaching the point where I can use effects to get what I want instead of fiddling around until it sounds ok. Thanks again.

[Lunahorum]

I just found a sweeeeeet guide to compression. It was called mixing_with_bfd.pdf and it was meant to go with the bfd vst, but it was extremely useful none the less, and explained what all the things on a compressor did, both at extreme and normal values.

That BFD2 kit looks awesome

ed

http://www.kvraudio.com/news/5721.html here is link to guide

I read the whole guide (whew that was long) and they mention something about processing mixed kits. I am guessing a mixed kit means you sample for example a kick and snare from two different recording sessions. I thought all the drums use different mics anyways so what is the difference if the drum is from the same kit or not?

[Lunahorum]

Ok what does it mean when a drum is from a "different kit"

I don't see what the big deal is when a drum is not from the same kit. What is a kit?

[Fray]

Yep, BFD is an acoustic drum sampler -- a kit is going to be a prepackaged full set of drums (snares, toms, kick, cymbals, etc.) that were most likely all recorded at the same time in the same studio, and tuned together so they sound their best. So in theory it might not sound as good if you mixed drums from different kits, but since the trend is to color the percussion a lot with EQ and compression, it all comes out in the wash usually.

[Lunahorum]

hmm ok thanks. I have also read that boosts in EQ changes the sound phase and cuts don't.

My question then is as follows: without a loss of generality, what is the difference between a boost at 4khz by 2db and a cut by 2db everywhere but 4khz with a gain of 2db?

I was also wondering if there was a difference between parametric EQ, graphic EQ, and the other types. Are there different algorithms being used in each one that colors the sound differently or do they all use digital fourier series approximations? And as a sub question, how many eq instances does it take to noticeable degrade the sound quality mixing at 48khz? I guess that's the advantage of mixing at 196hz before a final dithered, anti-aliased mixdown to CD quality because the fourier series takes way way longer to build up humanly perceptible approximation errors?

and Just while we are on the topic of sound quality, does anyone know of any sites offering a blind test or showing the difference between lossless and lossy? I searched and found a bunch of morons claiming they could hear (more like imagine) subtle differences when they knew which was the lossy and which was the lossless, but I didn't find any site with a "hear the difference" audio file to download and listen to.

cool beans thanks

[Fray]

hmm ok thanks. I have also read that boosts in EQ changes the sound phase and cuts don't.

My question then is as follows: without a loss of generality, what is the difference between a boost at 4khz by 2db and a cut by 2db everywhere but 4khz with a gain of 2db?

I was also wondering if there was a difference between parametric EQ, graphic EQ, and the other types. Are there different algorithms being used in each one that colors the sound differently or do they all use digital fourier series approximations? And as a sub question, how many eq instances does it take to noticeable degrade the sound quality mixing at 48khz? I guess that's the advantage of mixing at 196hz before a final dithered, anti-aliased mixdown to CD quality because the fourier series takes way way longer to build up humanly perceptible approximation errors?

and Just while we are on the topic of sound quality, does anyone know of any sites offering a blind test or showing the difference between lossless and lossy? I searched and found a bunch of morons claiming they could hear (more like imagine) subtle differences when they knew which was the lossy and which was the lossless, but I didn't find any site with a "hear the difference" audio file to download and listen to.

cool beans thanks

http://www.soundexpert.info has a bunch of listening tests. One thing to know about any lossy format is that once it's compressed, you can't do anything to the signal without decompressing it -- meaning that when you compress it again, you'll degrade the signal further. So for collaborations or backing up your mix, you really want to use a lossless compression like FLAC.

Equalizer types either refer to the controls offered (Graphic, Parametric) or the filter shapes (Shelving, Peak, Highpass, Lowpass, Bandpass), not the algorithm used to implement them.

... Except for "Linear Phase" Equalizers. All signal processors shift the phase of the signal from what I understand -- the unique thing about equalizers is that they will cause a different phase shift for each band that you boost or cut. I haven't found an explanation of Why This Is Such A Bad Thing, so if anyone knows, please tell It could be a marketing thing, linear phase equalizers are a lot more expensive, hehe.

Cuts are supposed to be more transparent to the human ear than boosts, but I don't know if they're exempt from phasing issues. Probably not.

As for cuts everywhere but one spot vs. a boost at that spot... I think it would be impossible to pull the same curve off with the controls an equalizer offers. But I don't really know.

You can't measure a specific number of EQ instances before there's a noticeable sound degradation. Totally depends on how the EQ is implemented and what you're doing with it.

It's great that you're reading up on all this stuff, but TBH you're overthinking it! Don't get me wrong, it pays to know the science behind this stuff, but don't forget that your ears are the most important tool when it comes to deciding if you've distorted the sound too much, or if one type of EQ sounds better than another.