H. Guderian

First off, good job everyone. Winners were deserving. Though my one vote came from myself. That stings a bit~ edit: Oh, and I eagerly await the next event. I'll start earlier, I promise.

When I say cautious, I merely want people to enter the debate without fishing for concepts. Think of a game that is mostly cinematics, like the first cut scenes that were pre-rendered and looked nothing like the in-game graphics. There's a jolt ther that really isn't in other medium. Imagine this new Batman movie with excellent raves, what if Heath Ledger's scenes as Joker (which everyone is raving about seemingly) were only done by him half the time, and during slower moments they filled in with the old Joker from the old Batman movie. The later Batman movies even had that whole nipples on the suit. People whined about the new Dumbledore in a Harry Potter movie. We simply write things off like this in games. Like its somehow okay to not maintain how thigns are going. An artist can fight the mold, but there are still plenty of cases where gamers point to their genre and see only how its good. Speaking of cutscenes, those are just movies inserted into games. If we accept that videogames are merely a hybrid movie with playable elements I think I'm very right to caution against it. There are several games that are beggining to fight against having non-interactive cutscenes, though it typically takes the form in button mashing (RE4, God of War). Every year or two we seem to make another step towards a better experience. I have very little doubt we'll be seeing further improvements. A note on gameplay; We're all kinda used to it, but look at the NES controller and the last/current gen of contorllers. The sheer number of buttons and sticks surely confounds the experience, but holding the shoulder button for major actions in Metroid Prime or SotC enhanced the experience I feel. Controls are for the most part technical and tend to be void of experience enhancing elements. Also noteworthy off the top of my mind, R1 to hold Yorda's hand. Simplicty in controls, one attack, ICO was modern simplicity. We're far too forgiving of the medium's current flaws. They're being worked on, though its not usually a priority. I still say give 'em time.

*applaud* That's probably one of the most important, thanks! Said simply and was a good point.

You've got two flaws in there; why bother asking the question at all if everything is the same level of art? Certainly the word art should hold some value and not jsut be another term meaninging 'everything'. And as I elaborated very few people know the exact purpose of their own creation. Most artists want to create great art, yet few are capable. We merely attempt to understand the medium in which we work, and try to find out how to increase our capabilities to convey what the artist intends. The message also doesn't have to be a snobbish high class thing as people keep trying to say. Good art says something, whether you want it to or not, and is not always intended by the artist. An artist is making an attempt, this is art, not a science. I'm not trying to make video game art as something a class above, or fine art. I msotly want to avoid the all-or-nothing approach that seems popular.

The artful aspect of games should be the immersion in the purpose of the game. If the artist wanted to give people something, or show something, its within the experience. A a great video game should have its value in the journey, no matter how big or small. Thats not something you can merely put in a museum, kinda like a good book. We just acknowledge them. The Hands; I want games to be good/great art, I'm just not going to prematurely call it. Video games can be art. I want it. Though making a factual cut and dry dictionary reference doesn't clarify something that is immeasurable. As to why art needs to say something? I'm not saying a guy sits down and creates something with a list of moving movements. Just look here at OC Remix, someone may just make a remix of a song, and they just make it for fun, applying their skills, but someone will come up and mention that the peices of the song came together to form a complete whole. We're mistaken to believe creators know exactly what their creation will do. You may have a child and hope it plays baseball only to have it be a successful doctor. Your art peice may have been a fun experiment, but you didn't know how deeply it affected people. Sure, some artists know what they attempt to create, but how many sincere artists (myself one of them) of all the mediums availible try and try again to make great art, only to make something boring or mediocre? DaVinci may have not intended to create great art out of the Mona Lisa, but he knew the means to create it. Visual art had matured for centuries, he knew the basics of delivery, and while he didn't conciously attempt to make something grand, he did. Art moves through the artist like a vessel, as some say~ Just like with games, many developers and creators -want- to create something meaningful, and many try to act on that, but we're still too early. I beleive we'll get there though, give a decade and I'm sure we'll al be able to ramble off a list of titles of games that are great art peices, without having to debate merit. This is a topic I like to talk on a lot, and wouldn't mind looking at certain titles in closer depth, but from there it gets really relative per person, and you can't really convince someone there is or isn't greatness where they think they see it.

Video games are still games first and foremost in most cases. A graphical interface does not make Solitaire on my PC any more of an art peice than Solitaire played with real cards. Which equates a comparison to other sports, and racing games. Then war games. As I said, calling one thing art or not means nothing if you have a loose definition of art. If you're trying to equate the best artistic video game to the best artistic books/movie/etc,, you're obviously going to be trying to find the best from each medium. Thats why the debate seems 'snobbish/classy'. You argue with the best evidence first in a debate. No one is going to say video games are art and bring Pong as their first example. That is why the debate seems to hinge on certain titles and criteria. We've all got our ideas on what constitues art. But as pointed out, yes, we do need to be cautious between trying to narrow it down to classy/snobbish ideals or merely expand it accept every title as art. Art and its quality should be defined by its individual purpose and method to achieve its own aim. The game should have a purpose or message (no it doesn't have to be a spiritually deep message, or anything super-important!) and it has to convey that. I'm sure this stands for all other art forms. And yes, sometimes a great message purposefully delivered in what appears to be a bad way may actually be the most effective venue.

I'd have to throw some objections to your samples. They are mostly peices that do push some boundaries, but are still primarily games. I think this best can be summed up in doing a little search. Trying playing a game, not a video game, that is also considered a work of art. Its very hard to find. Nothing comes to mind. I remember a famous arguement on this subject, where a man compared video games to their art counterparts in a simple Gymnastics vs. Ballet arguement. They both require great agility, years of training, and are not easy at all. However, one is a technical sport, each move is given points, things are ranked, and while a player slipping and falling may evoke emotion, that is not its aim. Meanwhile ballet, the recognized artform, they pursue intangibles, and while I probably couldn't watch an entire performance, it is the superior artform over gymnatics. It pursues the immeasurable and intangible human emotions, the course of events in art will shock and awe and the soul and engage the higher level thought that we as humans have. Likewise, with the Sims, enjoying it and watching your people move around is like building an ant farm, or putting people in an oversized ant farm. Its a technical display, and while you may gain some emotional value from the experience it does not aim to give it to you. This can be applied to most Sim games, heck, Sim Ant and Sim Tower/City. Place building/furniture A here, result B. Place another A and get C. Ruling "yes" is far too early, and if you're relying on story or gameplay, you're not asking the game's intent. A good story is merely history in progress. How many history books are considered art? (I can name one~) Good gameplay...life as it stands has good gamplay, many sports in reality have jsut good gameplay, and some hearwrenching games have been played, but they still aren't art, or 'good' art. The game needs on some level to intend to be more than a game, a chain of mathematical forumlae. If you want games to be considered deep you have to look deep, and they almost always still come up lacking.

2nd' Atma. We're creeping in on it, but there are more trends working against video games being art then there are things helping it out. This certainly isn't a black and white issue, but currently, games are mostly games, and not art. Its on its way, but for the most part, games behave very, very awkwardly as an artform. I mean, whats a combo or an ammo count have to do with things? Codes? Unlockables? Games are, like prior artforms, merely older forms meshed together with something new added in. Visual were merely colors we meshed together to form compositions wiht morem meaning than the base parts. Music was combining sounds tro give out more meaning than the base parts. Movies combine the two and moved them through a timeline. Video games are a movie with interaction, giving the audience a partial role as a creator in the art. If your game has mostly cinematic cut scenes (like a JRPG) and some vaunted great story, but you can't get to it because you need to slug through dozens of hours of fodder enemies, why not just make it a movie or TV show? Game art is cumulative of all of its peices. But merely saying it looks or sounds good or has interesting plot alone doesn't win the fight for art. The interactive element in the game should be a primary focus to the message and compoisition's aim. Gameplay is not there to be 'fun' or 'cool'. More guns and sweet new moves, are not required. Defining ART. First off, this debate is not about good art. My 7 yr old cousin's scribbles are art. I think we're trying to place games on a higher level then a child's scribble. We're asking if games are -good- art. Also, art doesn't need to be fun. Good art has a goal and a message. It says something. Sometimes it doesn't say much, but it says it well. Now I've played most of the 'this is art!' kind of games, but but we're defaintely not there yet. Think of art as being something beyond mere entertainment, and realize that trying to pin the label of art on any current or incoming titles is like stopping halfway through a race, seeing the finish line, but deciding what we have is good enough. We've got some developers and bright minds that are working to bring us true video game art. Let's let them work and revist this later. And one final thing: Most great art is transcendent of the medium. Great musical art or great visual art is recognizable and applies beyond boundaries. Try taking a video game that merely looks nice, or music that needs the game's context and play that for average non-gamer people. It won't work very well. If the music does interest them, then the music is good, but says nothing of the game in question.

Now there be some nice entries~ Congratulations on the good work everyone!

Yea~ I didn't screw it up! I consider this enough of a personal victory, onto the celebrations!

Just sent mine in...I surely didn't give myself enough time to do color, so Black and white it is~ I don't think it sent through though, either that or I'm just worrying. I can't wait to see the seemingly large pool of entries!

Got about another 2-3 hrs left on mine...so roughly 9pm-ish I'll send mine in.

Going to attempt... I've been meaning to. Might cut it close, but I'll make it. Surely it will lose, I just don't want to lose in last place~

"Give a Reason" Slayers, 2nd season opening, original sung by Megumi Hayashibara. Probably in my top 5 of OP/ED list of all time, easily. Loved that show too.