Zelda TP/OOT - Grove of memories (sacred grove/saria's song) V.2

[jordanrooben]

This is a version of saria's song was inspired by the sacred grove theme. I tried to make it sound a bit older and more mature.

V.2 EDIT:

Removed the sfx intro.

Removed second melody.

Added an excerpt from the twilight princess version.

Changed the song structure.

Added several new instruments.

The whole soundscape is now richer, and focuses on one melody. The end is still abrupt. I'll fix it later on.

[Rozovian]

Unless you're gonna have it played live, monophonic single-instrument mixes (with or without ambient sound and rhythm stuff in the background) tends not to do well - and they'd have to be good in arrangement, performance and production anyway.

So while the first few notes were pointing in your desired direction of a little older and more mature, the rest of the arrangement was basically a redo of the melody with some notes moved or removed. Look up how ppl have arranged tracks before, the Zelda series has lots of simple melodies that have been remixed here, many more than once. You could analyze my own OoT mix to see what can be done with with a simple melody or two. Tyler Heath's take on Dragon Roost Island is another great example of how you can change a melody. Those are just the two that come to mind atm.

Note that they've both got loads more instruments. You don't need dozens of instruments, but it helps to have a few. Depending on how you prefer writing, backing chords is one way of doing it. Strings or a warm pad could do that. You could also have backing melodies on softer and more distanced melodic instruments. If you know how chords work, try to imply chords with the backing melodies, just don't let them take center stage a lot of the time. It also helps to follow the rhythm of the main melody, but to not have as many notes - this makes it more chord-like and won't distract form the lead.

Beyond being more deliberate in what you do to the melody and how you use it, and using additional instrumentation (usually good to reference the source in those as well), work on your production. Right now it seems you have a bunch of notes with little regard to how they would be performed if performed by a human. Note length and note velocity are the two easiest and most obvious things to start changing in order to get the part more emotive.

Too complicated? It isn't once you get into it.

Basically - nice idea, nice start, then you do a newb mistake. Scratch the mistake and do that part over. Keep at it. You'll get it.

[jordanrooben]

Unless you're gonna have it played live, monophonic single-instrument mixes (with or without ambient sound and rhythm stuff in the background) tends not to do well - and they'd have to be good in arrangement, performance and production anyway.

So while the first few notes were pointing in your desired direction of a little older and more mature, the rest of the arrangement was basically a redo of the melody with some notes moved or removed. Look up how ppl have arranged tracks before, the Zelda series has lots of simple melodies that have been remixed here, many more than once. You could analyze my own OoT mix to see what can be done with with a simple melody or two. Tyler Heath's take on Dragon Roost Island is another great example of how you can change a melody. Those are just the two that come to mind atm.

Note that they've both got loads more instruments. You don't need dozens of instruments, but it helps to have a few. Depending on how you prefer writing, backing chords is one way of doing it. Strings or a warm pad could do that. You could also have backing melodies on softer and more distanced melodic instruments. If you know how chords work, try to imply chords with the backing melodies, just don't let them take center stage a lot of the time. It also helps to follow the rhythm of the main melody, but to not have as many notes - this makes it more chord-like and won't distract form the lead.

Beyond being more deliberate in what you do to the melody and how you use it, and using additional instrumentation (usually good to reference the source in those as well), work on your production. Right now it seems you have a bunch of notes with little regard to how they would be performed if performed by a human. Note length and note velocity are the two easiest and most obvious things to start changing in order to get the part more emotive.

Too complicated? It isn't once you get into it.

Basically - nice idea, nice start, then you do a newb mistake. Scratch the mistake and do that part over. Keep at it. You'll get it.

I appreciate the advice. I do have aquestion though. You said the rest was just notes moved or removed. I take it that's a bad thing, but the whole song centers around that melody, so i'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Rozovian]

Just moving or removing notes is boring, newby, and lazy. That's what I'm getting at. (yes, it can be done well, but most of the time, this is what newbs do and they tend not to do it well )

There's loads of way of altering a melody. You can repeat parts of it, change the rhythm, change the chord (change some of the notes to different notes and it'll imply a different chord), you can play it in a different scale/mode, you can cut it up into smaller melodies and give them to different instruments, you can play it slower or faster, you can shift the whole thing forward or back (so it doesn't begin where it normally would, thus skewing the rhythm)...

It's not easy to get into how you can change a melody - and a lot of the time, ppl think you HAVE TO change the melody A LOT - but it can be done subtly. For example...

The 10th and 11th, and/or the 15th-16th notes could be moved down a step or two. This will change the melody, but it'll do that while keeping it recognizable yet changing the mood. Depending on how you wanna change the mood, see what notes you can move while the keeping the melody recognizable and still making it what you want it to feel like.

And/or, you can use the first 6 notes and just move them around. I could play those normally, then wait for as long, then play them again except the first (and 4th) note would be a step or two lower, thus changing the mood. There's two suggestions for you to consider for learning what you can do with a melody. I'm not saying these are the only ways to remix, and I'm not saying you must do this. I'm saying that's how I would do it. Dunno if that means anything to you, but if I were you, I'd try it out, see what I can learn.

[jordanrooben]

Just moving or removing notes is boring, newby, and lazy. That's what I'm getting at. (yes, it can be done well, but most of the time, this is what newbs do and they tend not to do it well )

There's loads of way of altering a melody. You can repeat parts of it, change the rhythm, change the chord (change some of the notes to different notes and it'll imply a different chord), you can play it in a different scale/mode, you can cut it up into smaller melodies and give them to different instruments, you can play it slower or faster, you can shift the whole thing forward or back (so it doesn't begin where it normally would, thus skewing the rhythm)...

It's not easy to get into how you can change a melody - and a lot of the time, ppl think you HAVE TO change the melody A LOT - but it can be done subtly. For example...

The 10th and 11th, and/or the 15th-16th notes could be moved down a step or two. This will change the melody, but it'll do that while keeping it recognizable yet changing the mood. Depending on how you wanna change the mood, see what notes you can move while the keeping the melody recognizable and still making it what you want it to feel like.

And/or, you can use the first 6 notes and just move them around. I could play those normally, then wait for as long, then play them again except the first (and 4th) note would be a step or two lower, thus changing the mood. There's two suggestions for you to consider for learning what you can do with a melody. I'm not saying these are the only ways to remix, and I'm not saying you must do this. I'm saying that's how I would do it. Dunno if that means anything to you, but if I were you, I'd try it out, see what I can learn.

That single paragraph was more informative by itself than some guide to making music i'v ever read. Thanks for the advice, that's certainly something I will try.

[jordanrooben]

Version 2 finished. Check first post for details.

[Pyro Paper Planes]

I'm assuming you're new to creating music, which is fine. We all have to start somewhere.

Firstly, the song sounds very MIDI. What samples are you using?

There's very little dynamics to the entire song. The piano is constantly at the back, playing quietly. The flute is right up front and dry (too much so imo). It sounds like several ideas thrown together, but they're not working together.

The arrangement is lacking in originality. In terms of instruments, in how the melody sounds, etc. Try to add something to it that's you.

Finally, it's lacking in bass, low sounding instruments. Note that it's not always needed, but in the terms of style here, it needs it. Perhaps someone else can explain it.

It's better than my first few songs, but you've got a ways to go. Keep at it though, and you will break through eventually.

[jordanrooben]

I'm assuming you're new to creating music, which is fine. We all have to start somewhere.

Firstly, the song sounds very MIDI. What samples are you using?

I'm not sure what samples they are, I was just using some I sound fonts I downloaded.

There's very little dynamics to the entire song. The piano is constantly at the back, playing quietly. The flute is right up front and dry (too much so imo). It sounds like several ideas thrown together, but they're not working together.

The piano is supposed to be in the background and be subtle, and the flute is supposed to be the dominant instrument. And, what do you mean by "dry"?

The arrangement is lacking in originality. In terms of instruments, in how the melody sounds, etc. Try to add something to it that's you.

I agree that the instruments are not very original, however I was not trying to deviate to far from the source in this case. At least in my opinion the melody has originality while staying close to the source. What do you mean by "etc."?

Finally, it's lacking in bass, low sounding instruments. Note that it's not always needed, but in the terms of style here, it needs it. Perhaps someone else can explain it.

Why does it need bass? It has drums. I'm no expert on anything musical yet, but why is it lacking without the bass? I personally don't think bass would work well with this track.

It's better than my first few songs, but you've got a ways to go. Keep at it though, and you will break through eventually.

I really do want to get better, so any advice is welcome.

[Rozovian]

These samples will do for now. You won't make it sound real with them, but you can learn to mix with them. That said - learn to mix with them. Flute is _too_ upfront, and it sounds like it doesn't belong in the same soundscape as the more reverbed instruments. Give it some reverb, and reduce the reverb on the others a little. Drums are way back, and could use some more clarity. A rhythm instrument to cover the high range (hihat and shaker are the most common ones) would help.

You're still basing it on removing notes, but this is a lot better. You're learning.

The bass drum covers the low range, but some low notes on the piano or some other instrument could give you a richer sound. Doesn't have to be anything intricate, but something for the pianist's left hand to do. Imagine you have a pianist. The rhythm of the bass drum doesn't quite work during the main melody part (let's call it the A-part). In the B-part, it works okay.

On a related note, the piano sticks to the same two chords playing the same thing over and over. It works during the A-part, but during the B-part the chords are different so the piano should be playing something that fits with those. WHile figuring out what the chords are, writing full chords tends to make it easier (just move up/down and adjust for major/minor chords), but that doesn't mean you can't use a similar arpeggio rhythm thing for the B part - once you've found the right notes for it.