headphone monitor question

[Modus]

I got a pair of ATH-M50 headphone monitors for the purpose of mixing more accurately. Before someone goes off about headphones being far from ideal for pro mixing, I already know, but I'm a hobbyist and I don't care. I want my mixing to sound decent at budget price.

Anyway, I was reading heaps of reviews and some people were mentioning that it doesn't matter what headphones you get if you're just plugging into a PC. They said you need a serious piece of audio equipment to handle the ohm impedance of medium to high-end professional mixing headphones. OK, but all I have is my PC and my iPod to plug these babies into. Could anyone shed some light on this? I'm not an audio engineer :[

P.S. These headphones list an impedance of 38 ohms, and I'm not plugging them in using those "amp"-type inputs. I unscrewed that off.

[Nabeel Ansari]

I got a pair of ATH-M50 headphone monitors for the purpose of mixing more accurately. Before someone goes off about headphones being far from ideal for pro mixing, I already know, but I'm a hobbyist and I don't care. I want my mixing to sound decent at budget price.

Anyway, I was reading heaps of reviews and some people were mentioning that it doesn't matter what headphones you get if you're just plugging into a PC. They said you need a serious piece of audio equipment to handle the ohm impedance of medium to high-end professional mixing headphones. OK, but all I have is my PC and my iPod to plug these babies into. Could anyone shed some light on this? I'm not an audio engineer :[

P.S. These headphones list an impedance of 38 ohms, and I'm not plugging them in using those "amp"-type inputs. I unscrewed that off.

You don't really get new listening gear on the basis of its impedance or whatever, you get it for the frequency response because what you're hearing is what matters the most.

You should be worried about whether the headphones are too bassy or too hot more than its impedance unless it renders itself incompatible with your computer for some reason. I'm not going to really talk about it because I don't know much about it, but I am going to say for certain those reviews are obviously written by people who have no idea what they are talking about. Afaik, ohm impedance handling has nothing to do with frequency response. Listening gear is what affects the frequency balance, not the amp that sends audio signals (unless it has a built in EQ or something).

If I could just use any headphones for mixing "because I'm plugging it into a PC" I wouldn't bother with anything other than a cheap $10 pair.

[Moseph]

My understanding of the issue is that for some headphones you just may not get enough power without a headphone amp of some sort so the output levels may be way low. It's noticeable, for example, on the AKG K702 (which I use) -- I'm running out of a USB interface, and I sometimes have to bump levels up in my DAW because I already have the headphone monitor level on the hardware all the way up. I don't use these headphones with a portable MP3 player for this same reason.

tl;dr -- Unless the headphones aren't as loud as you want them to be, you don't have to worry about it.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Moseph

[Modus]

Well the frequency response is 15 to 28,000 so I'm pretty happy with that (though I think a 15 Hz signal might scramble my brain >_>) But yeah, I specifically sought out the widest frequency range possible at this price point.

The volume is also fine. So I guess all things considered so far, ohms are irrelevant.

I gotta say... as I listen to these monitors more, the sound is blowing me away a bit. I'm hearing what I can only describe as great depth. The bass is also very punchy instead of washed out and muddy like all my other headphones. It feels like I'm hearing my WIPs for the first time all over again. I'd definitely recommend these monitors to anyone looking around.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Well the frequency response is 15 to 28,000 so I'm pretty happy with that (though I think a 15 Hz signal might scramble my brain >_>) But yeah, I specifically sought out the widest frequency range possible at this price point.

The volume is also fine. So I guess all things considered so far, ohms are irrelevant.

I gotta say... as I listen to these monitors more, the sound is blowing me away a bit. I'm hearing what I can only describe as great depth. The bass is also very punchy instead of washed out and muddy like all my other headphones. It feels like I'm hearing my WIPs for the first time all over again. I'd definitely recommend these monitors to anyone looking around.

It's not the range you should be concerned with, normal human beings can only hear roughly between 20Hz and 20KHz. The range is pretty useless, what matters is the balance between them, and you seem to enjoy the balance ("the bass is very punchy" ) so you made a good choice.

[Modus]

I see what you mean, but I feel like the range is really pronounced with these monitors. Like I hear songs that have well-mixed bass frequencies, but they comparatively have less impact and depth than other mixes. I can tell that most songs don't even mix that low, but the few that do really shine with these monitors. I hear detail that is usually hidden.

It's hard to describe. In any case, if my concern with ohms is truly unimportant then I'm done rambling

[Nabeel Ansari]

I see what you mean, but I feel like the range is really pronounced with these monitors. Like I hear songs that have well-mixed bass frequencies, but they comparatively have less impact and depth than other mixes. I can tell that most songs don't even mix that low, but the few that do really shine with these monitors. I hear detail that is usually hidden.

You're just getting used to headphones that are actually good. If your headphone's lower limit was bumped up to 20Hz, you'd hear absolutely no difference (theoretically).

[SnappleMan]

You cant hear true 20hz on headphones, or like true 200hz for that matter, it must be felt for you to get an accurate image of those low frequencies (which is why professionally you would never mix a record without monitors). Having said that, the only time you want to care about the impedance of your headphones is when you're considering using them with a headphone amp. The reason people use headphone amps isn't just headroom, as good tube headphone amps give a very nice warm colour to the sound that help in the reproduction of the low end and keeping your signal cleaner of noise, and using low impedance headphones on these amps will cause distortion and whatever else that you don't want. From my personal experience, most studios will order high impedance phones because they have really good amps they want to use which have a chance of blowing out low impedance phones.

But seeing as you're not even interested in getting good speakers, I think you should stick to good low impedance phones, unless you want to spend lots of cash on a decent enough amp to make high impedance phones worthwhile. Any decent pair of (low or high impedance) studio headphones will give you great mixes once you learn them, as long as you make sure to constantly reference other speakers and headphones you have access too.

[SnappleMan]

Oh and one more thing: when a headphone is advertised as a "monitoring" headphone, it mostly means that it has a clearly defined range that makes it good for monitoring during tracking in a studio, so your singer/guitarist/drummer gets a nice and clear image of what he/she is performing to. Don't think it's the same thing as monitor speakers, which are meant for mixing.

[Modus]

Got it, Snappleman, but I have one more question. What exactly is considered low or high impedance? For future reference. I say that I have no interest in a pro audio setup, but that's just my empty bank account talking.

[SnappleMan]

From my experience low impedance is anywhere from 24-70ohms (give or take like 10 ohms ) and high impedance is around 500-600ohms. Keep in mind that thes values are relative to headphones! 600ohms is generally low impedance when talking about something like guitars.

[SnappleMan]

And again, it's not a question of pro-audio or not. Most studios use low impedance headphones just as much as high. It's a matter of electrical and physical need, like if you need to connect a few sets of headphones in parallel while they're being powered by one amp. Modern day mixers and professional interfaces are designed with low impedance headphones in mind, so you get optimal quality from them. If you were to plug in high impedance phones into them you'd have to crank the volume to max and it would still not be loud enough in some cases.

[Frederic Petitpas]

You cant hear true 20hz on headphones, or like true 200hz for that matter, it must be felt for you to get an accurate image of those low frequencies (which is why professionally you would never mix a record without monitors).

Quote of the year to plug into the monitors vs headphones debates.

[timaeus222]

NECROMANCY OMGOMGOMG There's no rule against it,

I figured I'd reuse this topic because it's related. I've had a headphone amp for awhile. Do headphone amps' frequency adjustment knobs change the frequencies of the output or input? I'm asking since if it changes for the input, my mixing isn't off, and if it changes for the output, then my mixing may be off (unless somehow I set the knobs to give me the perfect frequency accommodation for my headphones, which I highly doubt). If this sounds awkward, it made sense in my head.

Edited July 15, 2013 by timaeus222

[SnappleMan]

That's a good question! I would think that the smarter and easier choice would be to change the input. I'm not a headphone designer but I would assume it's pretty difficult to change the EQ curve at the output stage of a headphone.

You should clarify what you mean by input and output. Keep in mind that regardless of where the contour happens within the headphones signal chain, your EQ will be off. If you're mixing through headphones that are contoured, your mixing decisions will be biased to that contour.

[timaeus222]

That's a good question! I would think that the smarter and easier choice would be to change the input. I'm not a headphone designer but I would assume it's pretty difficult to change the EQ curve at the output stage of a headphone.

You should clarify what you mean by input and output. Keep in mind that regardless of where the contour happens within the headphones signal chain, your EQ will be off. If you're mixing through headphones that are contoured, your mixing decisions will be biased to that contour.

I'm not exactly a signal chain expert, but essentially:

When I say input, I mean the sound that plays from my computer before its frequencies get processed by FL Studio's Parametric EQs, assuming it's true that the amp works before all the internal DAW processing. If this is the case, my theory is that the EQ I had done would look the same (I have a spectral view in the EQ) as how it sounds.

By output, I mean the sound that plays from my computer after its frequencies get processed by FL Studio's Parametric EQs, assuming it's true that the amp works after all the internal DAW processing. If this is the case, then maybe the EQ spectral view would look different from how it sounds.

(I edited my previous post to fix a mix-up I wrote before)

[timaeus222]

As an elaboration to my question, do bass/treble knobs on headphone amps increase the threshold for the frequency input or simply give a shelving or peaking boost? In other words, does it allow me to hear more, or does it make what I hear stronger?

[dannthr]

As an elaboration to my question, do bass/treble knobs on headphone amps increase the threshold for the frequency input or simply give a shelving or peaking boost? In other words, does it allow me to hear more, or does it make what I hear stronger?

Your headphone amplifier is adding gain to your signal AFTER it has left your computer, after it has been converted from digital to analog signal--it is the last link of your studio output chain.

The frequency adjustment pots on your headphone amplifier are not functioning to process sound within your DAW, they are designed to adjust the listening environment.

You should consider them a calibration tool to match the sonic qualities of a reference track to those you're more accustomed to (say a near-field monitor system).

Almost every device that adds gain to your output chain is going to color your sound in one way or another, whether that be a headphone amplifier, or the amplifiers built into your active near-field monitors. Again, that is why it is crucial that you utilize reference material to both calibrate the frequency adjustments as well as your awareness of perception in order to be most effective.

If you don't understand what I'm telling you, then you should leave the frequency adjustments at their default setting.

[timaeus222]

Your headphone amplifier is adding gain to your signal AFTER it has left your computer, after it has been converted from digital to analog signal--it is the last link of your studio output chain.

The frequency adjustment pots on your headphone amplifier are not functioning to process sound within your DAW, they are designed to adjust the listening environment.

You should consider them a calibration tool to match the sonic qualities of a reference track to those you're more accustomed to (say a near-field monitor system).

Almost every device that adds gain to your output chain is going to color your sound in one way or another, whether that be a headphone amplifier, or the amplifiers built into your active near-field monitors. Again, that is why it is crucial that you utilize reference material to both calibrate the frequency adjustments as well as your awareness of perception in order to be most effective.

If you don't understand what I'm telling you, then you should leave the frequency adjustments at their default setting.

Ah, thank you for the straightforward answer. I use zircon's "Colossus" track from "Identity Sequence" as a reference track for bass and bLiNd's "Go Ninja, Go" OC ReMix as a reference track for treble. I turn up the bass/treble knobs until my ears don't hear a difference, and then I turn it back down to exactly where I started hearing the difference. I trust those two people the most for exceptional frequency balance. =)

I understand what you said, and I'm glad you said it that way. It's exactly what I wanted to know, too (and how I was hoping it would be explained, actually).

Edited August 19, 2013 by timaeus222