Making Drums Sound Tight, but Natural

[darkbrandflake11]

I have this problem when writing in sequencers. I like rhythms to sound naturally made, like having a live drummer play within a track. I find a lot of times that the drums will sound fine, but start to get slightly out of time with all of the other instruments, especially when some of the instruments are written to cue off of the drums. I try quantizing, even just by a slight 5% and the quantizing takes all natural feel off of it. I thought about just analyzing the rhythms and moving them by adding or subtracting amounts from midi's location placement. Is there any other way of making drums sound studio quality, but still natural?

[dannthr]

This is a perception thing.

Why don't you do this:

Start out writing on the grid, quantized.

If you feel like it would be more natural to slow down, adjust the tempo map. There is no natural performance where the tempo stays exactly the same.

If you feel like you need to adjust the sloppiness of the player, tweak the note timings.

Bottom line: A fucking great drummer drumming on a click track will be extremely precise.

Don't EVER make the same hit sound the same twice in a row.

Trust your ear but stay on the grid. If you're slipping off the grid it's because you're not using the tools you have--if you need to, remap the tempo with some kind of beat detective.

[SnappleMan]

You have to be aware of what's actually going on. It's not really about imperfect time but more about "swing". When I say swing I don't mean the style of music, but the grooving nature of a natural performance. The swing is about static/permanent syncopation in timing, and not by concrete note values like 16th or 8th notes, but in ticks.

You have swing too, when you record MIDI parts and they're offtime, notice how you naturally space the kick and snare. Chances are you give the snare drum a certain relatively even delay. That means that even though you're going for a 1/4 note length between hits, you may actually be spacing the snare 1/4 note and an extra 128th note (or 5, 10 or 20 ticks, or any small value of measurement) on every hit (on top of natural offtime variations). So this gives your drum performance a grooving swing, a feel. You instinctively know how you want the groove to feel so you give it that little bit of syncopated attitude without even knowing it. When you quantize you snap it all to the grid, and even a fuzzy quantize will "randomly" quantize with relation to the grid, not to your swing. So when you quantize you're effectively destroying the feel you created by playing the song.

If none of that makes sense then try this: when you're rocking out to a song and moving your body, notice how you drag yourself and then snap to the beat, now stop doing that dragging feel and just simply statically snap yourself to the beat as on time as you can. You should feel the difference between stiff mathematical bobbing and grooving. Your drum performance is the same. The only way around this in your music is to practice your keydrumming till it gets tighter, or record your tracks in shorter sections (couple measures at a time or whatev) so you don't lose your overall sense of timing.

[darkbrandflake11]

You have to be aware of what's actually going on. It's not really about imperfect time but more about "swing". When I say swing I don't mean the style of music, but the grooving nature of a natural performance. The swing is about static/permanent syncopation in timing, and not by concrete note values like 16th or 8th notes, but in ticks.

You have swing too, when you record MIDI parts and they're offtime, notice how you naturally space the kick and snare. Chances are you give the snare drum a certain relatively even delay. That means that even though you're going for a 1/4 note length between hits, you may actually be spacing the snare 1/4 note and an extra 128th note (or 5, 10 or 20 ticks, or any small value of measurement) on every hit (on top of natural offtime variations). So this gives your drum performance a grooving swing, a feel. You instinctively know how you want the groove to feel so you give it that little bit of syncopated attitude without even knowing it. When you quantize you snap it all to the grid, and even a fuzzy quantize will "randomly" quantize with relation to the grid, not to your swing. So when you quantize you're effectively destroying the feel you created by playing the song.

If none of that makes sense then try this: when you're rocking out to a song and moving your body, notice how you drag yourself and then snap to the beat, now stop doing that dragging feel and just simply statically snap yourself to the beat as on time as you can. You should feel the difference between stiff mathematical bobbing and grooving. Your drum performance is the same. The only way around this in your music is to practice your keydrumming till it gets tighter, or record your tracks in shorter sections (couple measures at a time or whatev) so you don't lose your overall sense of timing.

This makes so much sense, thank you Snappleman. Quantizing is great with more of an electronic feel, but you're exactly right about it taking the feel out of the rhythm.

What do you generally do if you were to record a natural sounding rhythm section?

This is a perception thing.

Why don't you do this:

Start out writing on the grid, quantized.

If you feel like it would be more natural to slow down, adjust the tempo map. There is no natural performance where the tempo stays exactly the same.

If you feel like you need to adjust the sloppiness of the player, tweak the note timings.

Bottom line: A fucking great drummer drumming on a click track will be extremely precise.

Don't EVER make the same hit sound the same twice in a row.

Trust your ear but stay on the grid. If you're slipping off the grid it's because you're not using the tools you have--if you need to, remap the tempo with some kind of beat detective.

The tempo map changing is a great idea. I never really thought about how tempo is just merely a perception, that's a really interesting way to think about it. What kind of beat detectives are there?

[dannthr]

You have to be aware of what's actually going on. It's not really about imperfect time but more about "swing". When I say swing I don't mean the style of music, but the grooving nature of a natural performance. The swing is about static/permanent syncopation in timing, and not by concrete note values like 16th or 8th notes, but in ticks.

You have swing too, when you record MIDI parts and they're offtime, notice how you naturally space the kick and snare. Chances are you give the snare drum a certain relatively even delay. That means that even though you're going for a 1/4 note length between hits, you may actually be spacing the snare 1/4 note and an extra 128th note (or 5, 10 or 20 ticks, or any small value of measurement) on every hit (on top of natural offtime variations). So this gives your drum performance a grooving swing, a feel. You instinctively know how you want the groove to feel so you give it that little bit of syncopated attitude without even knowing it. When you quantize you snap it all to the grid, and even a fuzzy quantize will "randomly" quantize with relation to the grid, not to your swing. So when you quantize you're effectively destroying the feel you created by playing the song.

If none of that makes sense then try this: when you're rocking out to a song and moving your body, notice how you drag yourself and then snap to the beat, now stop doing that dragging feel and just simply statically snap yourself to the beat as on time as you can. You should feel the difference between stiff mathematical bobbing and grooving. Your drum performance is the same. The only way around this in your music is to practice your keydrumming till it gets tighter, or record your tracks in shorter sections (couple measures at a time or whatev) so you don't lose your overall sense of timing.

Yes, groove is the best way to put it! Whether it's actual swing, or ghost notes, or a natural but consistent performance timing--it's the drummer's job to groove!

Some DAWs have a tempo detection algorithm. You'll have to investigate whether or not yours does.

[mediaeaters]

In the majority of commercial, mass consumption projects I've worked on, success or failure of "the groove" depends on the artists' ability to play to a click.

It sounds a bit backwards, but often it's that metronome-solid tempo that allows us to bob our heads and move to the beat, and changes in tempo (however subtle), may throw off your audience's ability to just lock in and enjoy. Grab any pop/rock/country/hip hop/edm track from the last 15 years and I'd bet you that the majority are an exact BPM from start to finish.

I always start out writing to a click/grid, and make sure drums lock to that. Then if all the other players use the drums as their "click," their natural tempo variations throughout the track will allow things to sound tight, but not robotic.

Of course this will change dramatically when working with jazz/classical, but the funny thing is that if you ASKED those players to lock to a click, they could do it. Every. Time.

[darkbrandflake11]

Thank you guys for responding so quickly. Professional drummers are really amazing, especially how some can throw in fills so quickly and naturally, but still fall back into a steady pace. Good times man.

Edited June 26, 2013 by darkbrandflake11