Some 80's synth knowledge please :)

[JamesXIIC]

So I was doing some research on digital synthesisers because my knowledge isn't too great in this area and I found out that two of the most well known ones are the Roland D-50 and Korg M1, aside from the DX7 but I know enough about that at the moment.

Basically I know that the D-50 uses Roland's own "Linear Arthimetic synthesis" which basically means instead of having full samples stored in ROM, it only had the lo-fi samples (i.e. waveforms with an 8 bit sampling resolution) of the attack segments of real instruments while the sustain portion of the sounds were handled by a very basic model of an analogue synth.

The Korg M1 was developed later and used 16 bit waveforms and full samples. Also as this was now Korg, no more L.A. synthesis.

Anyway I was wondering, which of the two synths do you feel would be better for creating sounds that feel overall synthetic, but at the same time contain elements of sound derived from real instruments?

In other words which of the two from your experiences or from what you have heard, would be best at creating "hybrid" sounds that are pseudo-realistic so to speak? Like "half real" strings or a real breathy flute combined with a clean sine wave in the sustain? Maybe bright synth pads with realistic vocal textures or true ethnic instuments that sound buzzy, gritty or eerie?

If you have any idea what you think I'm trying to say then please give me your opinions. I'm expecting Yoozer to fill me in as I'm sure his hardware synth knowledge is top notch but anyone else feel free to have a go. This is a result of my sudden interest in learning about S&S synths.

Sorry if this question seems kind of difficult to answer guys.

[zircon]

The Korg M1 is simply brilliant. I got the Korg Legacy Digital Edition (which includes the M1 and Wavestation, perfectly reproduced it's only $150) and browsing through the patches, it just SCREAMS "80s". I listen to tons of smooth jazz from the last decade or two and I CONSTANTLY hear M1 sounds. It's such a great synth. I can't recommend it enough.

[JamesXIIC]

Bugger me, only $150?! That's CRAZY! I was looking at the specs on the site - 900 PCM waveforms! I mean that's a LOT of waveforms...not to mention you get Wavestation and an ton of effects thrown in free.

And who cares if it's based on an old sound module, this software looks like it's giving you your very own 80's Motif/Trition/Fantom...and them some!

'tis the mutts nuts I'll bet.

[Compyfox]

I can also recommend the Waldorf PPG Wave 2.v VSTi. I recently aquired it, it's a wavetable synth (one of the most classic ones) from the 80ies. Spent 70bucks on it - and IMO one of the best 70bucks I spent.

The Korg M1 deal is great, too. And you can get the DX7 for free from the Smartelectronix subgroop MDA (over at KVR) if you don't want to use the FM7 from Native Instruments.

The Roland D-50 is a bit harder to get, though. Unless you look for it "second hand". Arturia might be worth a try too, they made the CS-80V, ARP2600, the Prophet V and two MOOG rebuilts. A bit more 90ies is the Novation V Station and the Bass Station.

Those are all major rebuilts I know. Well there're more, but those were the most popular. I'm looking for rebuilts of the the Roland RS-5 and XV5080 (software) or a Kurzweil K2500 (also software) by myself. But I guess that won't happen that soon. Which reminds me of something however - I wanted to ask Yamaha if I can still get a copy of the software synth "SYXG100" (rebuilt of the Yamaha DB50XG and XG100 wavetables).

hm...

[Yoozer]

Basically I know that the D-50 uses Roland's own "Linear Arithmetic synthesis" which basically means instead of having full samples stored in ROM, it only had the lo-fi samples (i.e. waveforms with an 8 bit sampling resolution) of the attack segments of real instruments while the sustain portion of the sounds were handled by a very basic model of an analogue synth.

It boils indeed down to separating the basic "body" waveform and the attack transient; which is for instance the "breath" part with wind instruments, or the "growl" from a trumpet, or the sound of the mallet on the piano.

It's got 4 'partials' - 2 of 'm are sample-based without filters, the other 2 are what reasonably can be called the first virtual analog; generated waveforms and digital filters.

Partials have looping waveforms, one-shot waveforms, and complete loops (like the "Clockwork" loop) - not just the attack waves .

The Korg M1 was developed later and used 16 bit waveforms and full samples. Also as this was now Korg, no more L.A. synthesis.

All terms for synthesis are fluff; once you get down to it . Yamaha's AWM is the same as Korg's AI², ACCESS or HI, is the same as Roland's RPCM or JV/XP or SRX. The difference is that AWM sometimes got augmented with FM (like on the SY-35) and that AI² didn't have digital resonant filters for an awfully long time, and Roland only caught up with that a while later, too (the U-series does not have digital resonant filters).

Anyway I was wondering, which of the two synths do you feel would be better for creating sounds that feel overall synthetic, but at the same time contain elements of sound derived from real instruments?

None. See, if you have Kontakt (or any softsampler) and an analog-like VST (Synth1) and layer them, you already have more than both of these could ever give you.

It's just the choice you make that you choose to use very short or lo-fi sample-snippets instead of several-gigabyte pianos, acquiring/constructing/sampling these snippets and the craft and skill of the sounddesign of both companies; work with an absolute minimum of memory space and still squeeze out as much as possible.

In other words which of the two from your experiences or from what you have heard, would be best at creating "hybrid" sounds that are pseudo-realistic so to speak? Like "half real" strings or a real breathy flute combined with a clean sine wave in the sustain? Maybe bright synth pads with realistic vocal textures or true ethnic instuments that sound buzzy, gritty or eerie?

I wouldn't waste money or time on both, but for the Korgs, it's pretty much a given that they carry a lot of their older wave ROM over to newer models. An 05/RW or something would serve you well.

See, both the D50 and the M1 suffer from being hard to program and in the end, they aren't all that spectacular; plus, they're "legendary" which drives up the price for no good reason. Forget the fact that a 01/W has all the M1 ROM and more. The D50 is harder to find in that sense; all D-related models don't have what the D50 has (the 20-series misses a lot, the 70 series has a CPU that is so slow that if too many LFOs are triggered at the same time it'll slow down their collective frequencies.). To get something current you either have to improvise by combining a sampler/synth and completely homebrewing everything, or you have to get the genuine article, or you have to get a V-synth with the card in there.

Compy's suggestion about wavetables is also good; while the system employed is rather radically different (as you're interpolating between waveforms instead of playing 'm back like samples), it does allow for very synthetic yet almost-real sounds in some cases.

Do check out Synthmania's entries on both machines:

http://www.synthmania.com/m1.htm

http://www.synthmania.com/d-50.htm

What's great is that Paolo also has some of the later Korg models there; you sort of hear how the evolution of sample-based synths went there.

$150 for Legacy Digital is indeed a steal. If you had to get both of them in hardware, you'd lose out at least 3-4 times as much.

Hm.. must look into it .

[zircon]

Bugger me, only $150?! That's CRAZY! I was looking at the specs on the site - 900 PCM waveforms! I mean that's a LOT of waveforms...not to mention you get Wavestation and an ton of effects thrown in free.

Yeah. It's nuts. Not only do you get ALL the waveforms and patches of the M1 and Wavestation, but EVERY SINGLE expansion card (all like 25+ of them) for both. There are probably a good 3k patches at least.

[Compyfox]

Well the Korg Legacy Collection (Digital) does not have the name "synth with the most patches" for nothing. I want to see the person who will use every single patch of it.

[suzumebachi]

what's the difference between the Korg Legacy Collection and the Digital Edition (besides the MS-20 controller)?

[zircon]

what's the difference between the Korg Legacy Collection and the Digital Edition (besides the MS-20 controller)?

Korg Legacy Collection = MS-20, Poly Six, Wavestation 1.

Korg Legacy Collection: Digital Edition = M1, Wavestation 1.5

Korg Legacy Collection: Analog Edition = MS-20, Poly Six

They discontinued the original KLC and now offer KLC:DE and KLC:AE at reduced prices.

[JamesXIIC]

Thanks Yoozer, that cleared a lot up. I had already read the articules at www.vintagesynth.com and www.synthmania.com so had a fair idea about what was going on but now I'm totally filled in.

I suppose you could use and sampler that includes effects and filters to achieve the same sort of sound but you need A) Lo-fi samples and a ton of programming.

My question has been answered though - I'll definitely look into the Legacy Digi Edition, and Wardolf too. Too bad I'm broke until the summer when I get a job of some sort.

Oh CompyFox, if you track down a PC version of Final Fantasy 7 you get the Yahama Softsynth thrown in free - I think it's the SXG-50 to be precise. Only catch is that it doesn't work in Windows XP as far as I'm aware as I'm stuck using the SB Live! GM modules when playing it.

You should be able to find a copy on eBay but if you are using XP or 2000 (which is likely ) then you're plain out of luck I think. As you know Yamaha stopped support for the softsynths AGES ago but maybe the SXG-100 is XP compliant?

I'm not 100% sure suzume but I believe the original Korg Legacy is a softsynth based on the well known KORG MS-20 - which is I'm sure you know, a monophonic analogue from the 70's. It's also more expensive but that's because you get the controller right?

[zylance]

I actually have the installer file for both the sxg-50 and 100, but I think it would be illegal for me to host them. Anyone know for sure about that?

EDIT: Yes, 100 is XP compatible.

[zircon]

I'm not 100% sure suzume but I believe the original Korg Legacy is a softsynth based on the well known KORG MS-20 - which is I'm sure you know, a monophonic analogue from the 70's. It's also more expensive but that's because you get the controller right? Razz

Original Korg Legacy was MS-20 (w/ controller), Wavestation (digital synth), and Poly Six (another analog synth). As I said. $500 tho!

[Yoozer]

Another way to get a D-50 is to get a Roland Vari-OS with a D-50 card. It'll be more than the original, however - but cheaper than a V-synth .

[Compyfox]

Oh CompyFox, if you track down a PC version of Final Fantasy 7 you get the Yahama Softsynth thrown in free - I think it's the SXG-50 to be precise. Only catch is that it doesn't work in Windows XP as far as I'm aware as I'm stuck using the SB Live! GM modules when playing it.

You should be able to find a copy on eBay but if you are using XP or 2000 (which is likely ) then you're plain out of luck I think. As you know Yamaha stopped support for the softsynths AGES ago but maybe the SXG-100 is XP compliant?

I already contacted Yamaha regarding that "standalone synth" (I also had a couple of other questions). I know it's on FF7 cause a friend of mine has it. It's the SYXG70 bundled. The software is discontinued unfortunately, but Yamaha was like "write us a mail and we try to get something to know for you.

So yeah... Thanks for the help, but I'm on it's trail for years now.

And before you say "go with hardware". Well... I already have a MU-15 (rebuilt of the DB50XG as external device) and the wavetable DB50XG (but I can't use it anymore, due to the fact that my recording cards don't have wavetable slots). I still use the synths, but I'm interested in some kind of VSTi too. Better control/automation, better GUI (sometimes), etc.