The Legendary Zoltan Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Hey, CHIPP Damage here. I've made it a personal goal of mine to make the first Valkyrie Profile remix on this site. Any cheers from people are warmly welcomed. Anyway, here's the extremely rough WIP. http://chipp_damage.sitesled.com/Music/Valkyriemix.mp3 This is going to be a Viking Death Metal song. Right now it's just two MIDI guitars. But the overall form of the song will be like this unless some people give me some good advice about doing otherwise. I'm NOT looking for SOUND QUALITY comments, thanks. That will be later. Don't worry, the final result will be ACTUAL recorded guitars played by myself. Drums and bass will also be added later on, of course. So I'm definitely hoping you'll leave comments about the arrangement aspect of this piece for now. Although, there are few people who know as much about Viking Death Metal as I do, I'm definitely going to seriously consider every comment made. よろしくお願いします。 CHIPP Damage EDIT: I'm so dumb, I forgot to mention what songs from the game I'm remixing! It's two songs. The main one being called Irrational Behavior. Arguably the most important song in the game since it plays EVERY time Lenneth meets a newly deceased person. I also used the song, Turn Over a New Leaf in a long instrumental section of my remix. Arguably the 2nd most important song in the game because it plays when Lenneth exchanges a few words with the boss before fighting it at the end of ALMOST EVERY dungeon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceansAndrew Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 I will be astounded if you (or anyone) can play those first runs cleanly. Not the straight notes, but the actual runs. I admit my Viking metal knowledge starts and ends with Einherjer, but it seems that the random starts and stops don't really sound very good, unless you have more planned. If that's the case, Fill it out so we can tell what is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted July 18, 2007 Author Share Posted July 18, 2007 Yes! Thanks for leaving the first post. The runs at the beginning that you're talking about is that really quick solo-y thing right? Well, I usually try to write whatever I want to hear on the guitar first and then learn to play it afterwards, which can create a lot of challenges, but I THINK I can play that. Hahaha. I've been working pretty fast on this thing. I've already laid out the bass and about 20% of the drums. I'll probably finish the drums and the rest of the lyrics today. I'll put up a new version of it after getting the drums finished. About all the pauses, Although there are a few intentional ones, the bulk of the ones that are all placed close together is where some singing will be. Death Growling baby! I haven't listened to any Einherjar, although I've heard of them. Can you recommend a song or an album for me? Have you heard the most mainstream Viking Metal band Amon Amarth? I recommend them. Their newest album, With Oden On Our Side, is really nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share Posted July 19, 2007 http://chipp_damage.sitesled.com/Music/Valkyriemix2.mp3 There's the link to the updated version. The bass and drums are all there. I went ahead and let the drums be repetative in some places, but don't worry, I'll add some more decorations to it later. I just wanted to hurry up and get it up on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordBreaker Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 The MIDI track sounds very promising. Man...recorded guitars would sound so awesome if it follows what you did with the MIDI. One comment I'd like to say is that the transitions between the paces of the track comes off rather suddenly. It goes from fast-paced shredding to slow-paced soloing and so on in an abrupt fashion. Other than that, I like the reinterpretation of those tracks. Again, I can't imagine how awesome it would sound when you finally record the guitars. The only thing I'd like for you to ad once you start working on the real version is some sort of choir singing. Would work really well with what's going on here. I'm a huge fan of the VP soundtrack so I'm hoping you keep at it until you get this submitted. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceansAndrew Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 It sounds a lot better with full instrumentation now. I agree that some of the transitions are too abrupt, but i'm sure you can figure out a way to smooth those out with vocals or fills. here's some einherjer tracks. THey broke up a few years ago, but have a myspace page anyways. http://www.myspace.com/einherjermusic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share Posted July 19, 2007 Thanks for the opinions guys. Since both of you agree that this changes too abruptly, I'd better think hard about that. I'll see what I can do about that. I'll finish up the lyrics and record a rough one so you can see how the lyrics sound and what exactly the song is about. As for the bass and drums sound. I think I might have to ask for someone to collaborate with me so I can have someone with better drum and bass samples produce it. What do you think? Do these drums sound real enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnappleMan Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 Valkyrie Profile is one of my all time favorite games.... Ughh... where's the song? All I hear is really bad MIDI guitar, bass and drums. Anyway, you're trying way too hard to write something complex. The first half of the song is all over the place, has no real musical merit. The second half is a bit better, but again, no melody, no structure, no direction. Sounds like you're going for a progressive rock kind of sound, but unfortunately for everyone, you're failing... miserably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 Hey Snappleman. Thanks for the comments. All over the place, huh? I'll have to think about that one too. As for those MIDI guitars, I said in the first post that I'm going to play all of this on an actual guitar later, but for now, I just wanted to see what people thought about the arrangement. Which means that you posted exactly the kind of comments I wanted to hear. So Thank you. I agree that there are a lot of different parts being thrown at the listener in rapid succession, but I kind of feel like the lyrics bring it all together since I actually wrote each riff to match each part of the story. This means that some of those areas that just seem like random heaviness with no melody or direction are actually supposed to have vocals over them. So let me finish up the lyrics and do another one of these rough recordings, and if you still think it's too crazy, definitely say so again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnappleMan Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 Crazy is different, I don't mean it's crazy. Dance of Eternity by Dream Theater is crazy, but that's good. Your song sounds pointless right now. I'll wait till you get lyrics and live guitars in there. Also, the drums don't sound real at all. If you're using soundfonts, go download something like NS_Kit free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Arrangementwise, I like where you're heading, while viking death metal isn't exactly up my alley, I do have a certain love for the melodic subgenre of death metal, and I can tell this is how death metal is supposed to sound (apart from the quality obviously =P). But if anything, I'd say this needs some vocals. While the drum fills and patterns sound decent, it's the sample quality and the lack of humanization that ticks me off. The double bass-runs suffer extremely from the machine-gun effect, which can be solved by some simple velocity editing. Also, while I'm generally against overcompression, Death metal is usually supposed to sound so loud that it's on the verge of clipping, so you're probably going to want to maximize the shit out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 Thanks for the comments Tensei san. Yeah, about those drums. I don't know why but for some reason, on just the bass drum, the sound at 1 velocity and the sound at 127 velocity are exactly the same. I totally agree with you that those drums sound bad in that respect. And since my computer doesn't seem to be compatible with soundfonts, I'm gonna have to do a collaboration with someone to produce the drums for me. I just finished recording a (VERY) rough version of the guitars. Lots of mistakes and the quality is not the best, but it's just for the WIP so I can give everyone an example to comment on. As for vocals, there are indeed lyrics. The new version will definitely have rough versions of BOTH recorded guitars and vocals. Just wait a bit for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 Ok, I got a version with crappily played and crappily recorded guitars here for everyone. It also has my crappily sung and crappily recorded vocals too. http://chipp_damage.sitesled.com/Music/ValkyriemixMP1.mp3 Once again I just wanted to get a final WIP up for comments before starting recording of the whole thing. So there are lots of mistakes and parts that aren't played very cleanly and all kinds of things like that, so I don't need anyone to tell me, "You gotta play that cleaner" or "You gotta record this better," cause I know that already. Just looking for comments on the arrangement aspect. I used some effects on the vocals on a couple of places. I would also like to hear about what you thought about that usage. There's no way most people will be able to tell what I'm singing about since this is death metal, so I'll post the lyrics right here. I hope you enjoy them. Jun, sharpen the katanas. Suo, bring the armor. Shiho, sing your song of courage. Yumei, raise the lapis high. The war of 9 worlds has begun and we are outnumbered 10 to 1. Nanami takes the odds and evens them. Tenchu raining down from heaven. Ragnarok is unleashed across these worlds. I choose to fight in Hai lan. Battle screams sound faster than Heimdal's horn. An arrow hits my shield. A cloud of Weeping Lilly pollen is unleashed. I fall to my knees but there is no valkyrie. I must journey across the rainbow bridge alone. Skuld! Where are the Einherjar? This is Ragnarok. Even the dead can't rest. You have been chosen by Odin to turn the tide of Ragnarok. Your deeds on Midgard are known to us, a warrior of legend to the Einherjar. You must fight for the all-father or the Yggdrasil will fall to the flames of Nifleheim. So take the Bahamut's Tear and take the Shining Bolt. To take your army to Valhall use the Swan Maiden's cloak. And fight like you are Aesir. I thrust my sword though Surtur, piercing his heart of flame. And as I am engulfed in his fire, I see that shining blue armor descend. In this song I place myself into the story. I am Zoltan and I live in Hai lan. When Ragnarok starts, I do battle with along the characters from the game who lived in Hai lan. After I die, when I arrive at Valhalla, there is no one there except for the Norn, Skuld. He gives me 3 items and grants me life again to finish my battle in Hai lan and then help the Aesir fight in other worlds throughout the Yggdrasil. In the end, instead of Surtur being the last survivor and burning the whole world, I kill Surtur before that happens and end up dying in the world's stead. Whew. Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Ok, apart from the obvious production issues, this kicks ass. Mad props for being able to play riffs like that. The vocals are definitely evocative, but they will need a lot of processing. (I'm thinking mainly reverb and some mad EQing)I'm really not sure about how similar grunts should be EQ'd to sound 'like the real thing', but I'm sure you can find it somewhere on the net. I think you should play around a lot more with stereo panning, layering and Reverse Delay/Reverb (The effect you can hear on dave mustaine's voice in the chorus of the Megadeth song 99 ways To Die) While I love the guitar riffage, it's really the tone that ticks me off. Especially the fast lead-licks sound like they've been played through my old practice amp. I know you're probably not using amp simulators, but rather recording your guitar through a mic, but still, there has to be SOME way to make at least the lead licks have a cool tone. (Maybe you can record your guitar clean, and then add distortion and stuff). For the rest, the arrangement kicks absolute ass, though I can't tell how much of the original tune is still present, I'm sure it will suffice for the judges. All that's left is that goddamn production! =P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 Thanks for the comments man. Yeah, indeed, I'm gonna have to get really freaking careful about the production after this. I recorded the guitars directly from my effects pedal to my sampler and then transferred that to my computer. So there were no mics. No "air" in the recording. Everything was done with direct lines. which I've just learned, sounds really unclean. I was thinking that for my voice, once thing I should do is record the entire vocal part twice and layer them. on some areas. I'm thinking that if I can get a friend to play drums with me that I could just go into the recording studio and then everything would be taken care of, but that'll cost 100 bucks for sure, so I can't do that now. So I'm thinking of going the practice studio which will only cost 20 bucks for 2 hours and recording the guitars and bass on their nice amps and nice mics. Hopefully that will make things much cleaner. God I hate producing crap, but since we're not talking about the production of electronically generated sounds, I ought to be able to learn this. So will definitely look it up on the net before going out to record it again. I gotta practice it some more too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenthian Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I'm going to save the panel a little time on this one. No - resubmit. Rhythm section is utterly underpowered, ( guitar, bass, Drums) This could be salvaged with some better drum arranging, and better Drum and Bass samples all around. Maybe even some more creative use of the bass. The Guitar recording is really weak, and while many will argue this can be saved with EQ, unless you have someone who can do this for you, I'd expect you'd need to be really experienced with processing to save this. Pro-tip, get a better recording interface. 7.xxMB is too big for OCR = no override. The encoding is in no way optimized, and a crappier bit rate might actually make this sound better. The singing comes across as tongue in cheek laughable. I dont know what you are trying to do, but you do NOT come across as threatening or death metal probably also in part because the backing instrumental is lacking power in almost every way. Your arrangement while expected of a metal track is much too straight forward and relentless. Dont take relentless to be a negative thing, thats something you should want to pull off in a good metal piece, but because everything seems so subdued, in this case it is entirely undesirable. the sequencing is kinda dull, and lacks expression and dynamics. Suggestions: Get a better recording interface, such as an M-Audio 419 firewire or an Mbox, or some cheap equivalent. (make sure your PC is compatible.) Get some nice medium sized 1/4 inch cables. (they neednt be expensive if you dont get cables that are too long.) 3 medium length and 1 shorter would be a good idea. Try using different pedals, or get a Pod or some other type of modeling box. ( if you have the cash, the Pod Xt Live is awesome.) A decent mic (such as an mxl 990,) or soemthing a little more expensive like a audio technica or shure, check out their websies for what they reccommend for vocals. It may also be a lot easier to stomach some more melodic singing. Check out drumkit from hell superior, BFD, or addictive drums as alternatives to whatever you are using. ( even soundfonts from sonivox might be in your best interest, I'd reccommend staying away from these for metal however, though you might be able to make them work Virt has in the past.) This mix requires a lot of fixing before it gets accepted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 Thanks for saving the panel some time. Hahaha. I definitely appreciate the comments, although I don't think you read my post yo. I do know that everything related to production sounds like crap right now and that because I just used the stuff I have in my own home. Unfortunately for me, if I wanna get a good sound, I'm gonna have to go out and record it at a practice studio with, not the best recording mics in the world, but much much better ones than I've got. I just wanted to get comments on the arrangement before going out for a polished up production job, since I can't record it any better than this at my own home. So anyway, after hearing you say that it's relentless and straight-forward, Tensei san say that it's good, Avaris say that it's a little disjointed, and Snappleman say that it's got no musical merit (That was a good one!), I've realized that the arrangement only needs to have the transitions smoothed out and then it's on to production. I know a lot about death metal, and believe me, this song is hardly straight forward as far as amount, and arrangement of riffs goes. Once again, thanks for all that great advice. How many of those pointers you gave me can I actually accomplish? Unfortunately none of them, except for getting (well, using) a better recording interface, amps, and mics. Don't worry Trenthian. I'll make you proud when this is all over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnappleMan Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 The mixing in this new version is TERRIBLE. Same for the vocals (though the lyrics are hilariously awesome). You got a long way to go before calling this finished. The guitar tone is really bad also. Are you just using a metalzone through line in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 It's not a metalzone but it is a direct line in thing. Sounds like hell, I know. T_T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnappleMan Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 Dude, feel free to hit me up on AIM. I'll see about getting you hooked up with some better sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted August 28, 2007 Author Share Posted August 28, 2007 Yoshi! I got a new version of my Valkyrie Profile remix done. Here it is. http://chipp_damage.sitesled.com/Music/Valkyriemix%20MP3.mp3 The improvements: -Guitars sound WAY better. Pretty much no mistakes and EQ'd much better than before. I managed to retain heaviness and still make things clear enough to understand what's going on all the time. -Vocals sound better, but probably still too cheesy for submission. -Removed a few short but unnecessary parts, making the song feel more like a song. This basically sets the arrangement in stone. I even varied up the drums more so I think the arrangement is perfect now. The main thing I'd like to hear about this new version is whether or not the current guitar PRODUCTION is passable and if not, I'd like to hear your advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceansAndrew Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 Guitar sounds like it needs some treble, everything is kindof a low end mush. It's better than the earlier revisions but still needs tweaking. Lyrics are completely rofl-worthy but authentically cheesy for the genre, and pretty true to the game, except wtf are vikings doing with katanas? Vocals are too dry, they sound like they were pasted on top, they need to sit more naturally in the sound field. Playing is overall pretty good, though the leads are brittle and thin. They are also super dry and too close sounding; it sounds like they are being played in your bedroom rather than on the glorious fields of battle. The parts where everything cuts out and just guitars play something sounds really sloppy, it's like you added delay to just these parts and none of the other guitar parts. Overall this has come a long ways, but still has a ways to go. Keep rockin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 I almost thought you forgot about this song, good to see you back dude =P I agree with most of what OA said. The vocal doubling is cool, but the vocals still sound too up-front and exposed/cheesy in some parts, so I think a hint (more) reverb would help them blend better. The guitars still suffer quite a bit from production issues. Some of the heavier instrumental parts really expose the muddy low-end, and it becomes hard to distinguish the single notes during parts like 3:58. The higher lead tones overall still sound very cheap, but I'm afraid you can't get it any better purely through processing. The lick at 0:06 sounds very sloppy, as if you've put delay/ loads of reverb on it or something, the previous version sounded better. The lead guitars at 4:58 sound pretty good though, so I'm not sure what's up with the varying quality. =P The general balance has a lot of emphasis on the guitars and vocals, and the drums kind of get drowned out during busier parts, up to the point where you basically only hear cymbal sizzle and everything else is just a huge wall of sound. Also, bass is non-existent, or simply not audible at all. I think this needs still a lot of work in the mixing department, since I really want to be able to hear the rapid kick-drum rolls and distorted bass, and not just sort of vaguely feel them, if you know what I mean. =p I think a good idea would be to take a good listen to an Amon Amarth song (or whatever band has a similar sound), and try to mimic the way their song is produced, paying special attention to the vocal processing, the volume levels, and the general EQing and mixing. Arrangement is of course as great as ever, and the riff/section at 2:35 kicks absolute ass =P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordBreaker Posted August 28, 2007 Share Posted August 28, 2007 Glad you managed to get this remix into full throttle. Anyway, definitely an excellent start here. Loving the guitar playing and the riffs. There are still a few abrupt transitions, but it sounds more like a song now. The quality varies, though. Some areas sound a bit muddy overall. I can't make some riffs or drums out when you have a lot of things going on. As for the vocals, well I'm not a fan of Death Metal and I prefer sung vocals over this, but it does fit the genre. Sounds a bit cheesy, yeah. Nice work, man. Keep it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted August 29, 2007 Author Share Posted August 29, 2007 Man, I swear, if it's not recorded in an expensive studio, it's not good enough for OCR, is it? Tensei, how do you record your guitars? I'm starting to think that there's no way I'll be able to play guitars on my very own death metal piece because I just don't have money or equipment. I'll tell you guys exactly what I did to record my guitars. I used a ZOOM 505 multi-effects pedal for the basic sound, went to a practice studio and used they're nice Line 6 amp and played the song. I recorded it with what I suppose is a standard concert mic. I don't really know. It's the same mic used at all the concert halls in my area though. I didn't check the brand name or model. I plugged that mic into my sampler using a 3-prong to 1/4th inch cable. After recording, I took everything home and used a audio to 1/8th inch cable and recorded the music in Sonar from the line out jack of my sampler to the line in jack of my computer. Then I EQ'd it to have a lot more mid and bass. And that's how I got the final product. I did the same thing with the vocals, too. If it's not simply a difference in EQing or the distortion that I use, I don't think there is anything I can do to make it sound any prettier. I wish the judges arrangement bias would kick in more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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