Sagnewshreds

I think this is a pretty reasonable experiment to do. I get how ads on YouTube videos are more "intrusive" because they are ingrained in the content that you consume. That's the sole difference in my mind. DJP gave a pretty solid explanation, and I think that morally speaking ads on YouTube videos are no different than ads on the site. Most people don't think of it that way though, myself included until I read DJP's explanation. People are used to YouTube ads generating profit on music videos and don't think of them in the same way that they'd think of a banner ad on a website.

Ads displayed on the page of the YouTube video rather than in the video would make a difference to me because the main (only?) problem I have with YouTube ads in the video is that they inherently make the content less enjoyable for those who don't use adblock. 

Re: legal stuff. A lot has been said on this. Here's a quick primer. Any and all use of copyrighted materials, by anyone for any reason other than licensees or copyright holders, is de facto infringement. Let's get that out of the way. If you make a fan remix and upload it on YouTube with no monetization, that is by default considered to be infringement. Let's make that 100% crystal clear. 
Fair Use is a legal concept that exists as a defense against claims of copyright infringement. So if Party A uses Party B's copyrighted material, and Party B says "Hey, I'm going to sue you", Party A can say "nuh-uh, it was fair use." Whether or not that defense is valid is determined on a case-by-case basis. There are no universal rules, just standards that are used to evaluate each case individually.
So if you want to take a hardline view, then OCR since day 1 (with or without ads) has been infringing copyright. But obviously that's not the whole story, since in all of OCR's lifetime and even after considerable publicity, it has never been sued, despite many major copyright holders being well-aware of the site's existence. That's because Dave has done his homework, consulted with lawyers, and come to the conclusion that OCR would likely fare well in court (if it came to that) with a Fair Use defense. And chances are those entities have taken no action because they believe OCR's use is in fact fair, and does not interfere with their own rights to commercialize their work.
My own view, as a music industry professional (though not a lawyer), is that having monetized videos on YouTube is not going to make any material difference in a court of law compared with advertising on the site itself. If a copyright holder believes that OCR's use of copyright is infringing, my own (educated) guess is that they are not going to say that site ads are OK, but YouTube ads aren't. Very unlikely, especially given the extreme proliferation of unlicensed covers on YouTube including some on major channels. 
Put simply: in my view, informed through my experience in the industry, if you think YouTube video monetization is illegal, or otherwise infringing/wrong, then everything OCR has ever done is illegal.
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On the topic of YouTube and shielding from liability specifically, the advantage of YouTube in that department is that you can work with multi-channel networks (MCN) who have the resources and connections to take care of copyright issues. That's why so many major channels are part of networks, so that when a developer or publisher flags their Let's Play video (or whatever), they have a team that can deal with the claim and come to an arrangement. That was one big reason why Dave was considering this at all, because we'd be able to work with an MCN.
There's the conspiracy theory explanation, and then there's the explanation that Dave (the only person who has any actual authority related to the site, its financials, etc.) is married, with a full-time job, and two very young kids, on top of existing responsibilities running the site, that have taken up the majority of his time and he hasn't gotten around to having a deep conversation with Chimpazilla on this. I was talking to her today and I'm sure Dave would have chimed in, were he not en route to Otakon. 

I am certainly not suggesting a gradient of legality; something either is or isn't. I don't know enough about copyright law or creative content law to voice a informed stance on that. However, that is still very much what this discussion ought to remain about. An audit very well may need to be done just for the benefit and sake of the site; not because you think David is pocketing "profit" (as opposed to revenue going to the site).

I'm also against my work being monetized unless I am aware of it. For me, game arrangement is a hobby. It's a pity it gets recognized more than my original work does but my original work is where I will seek to monetize it and strike it rich (in that perfectly crafted dream world that isn't real). No I don't expect "Invertebrate Retreat" to make me any money (although I was ticked for quite some time that it was the title track of an anthology album released by Tommy Tallarico way back and I didn't see a dime of royalty since of course he owned all the licensing and blah blah water under a bridge that no longer exists). 

I just don't get the assertion that there's funny business going on. Bad business, perhaps. But funny business? Now you're calling out their character and that I'm not going to support. Whereas you are suggesting they are guilty until proven innocent, i maintain they are innocent until proven guilty. Not because they're my friends but because that's the American thing to do... which you would think with so much Americanness in your sig, you'd be down with.

For the record, I do not currently have a stance on the YouTube ads issue. I see both sides and both sides are compelling. If I felt that OCR was making boatloads of cash (lol) off it, then I might have a problem as I've dedicated the past god knows how many years putting music together for the community and have yet to make a penny off it or because of it. I don't like the idea of somebody else making even couch-fodder change off my sweat any more than anyone else. But I also don't think OCR is making any real profits here at all. The revenue, from all indications, is for self-maintenance. Otherwise, if sources such as Patreon or peddling merch at cons or the site ads or YT ads go to shit, the site ends up needing to be paid out of pocket (which is an outrageous thing to ask considering the sheer magnitude of it) and if that can't happen, then OCR is toast.
Which is precisely what happened to VGMix. Nobody, unless wealthy and so inclined, is going to just self-fund the whole thing perpetually. Maybe when I strike it rich and become the rockstar i've always wanted to be, I'll spot OCR 100k a year for posterity. 

But let's just keep this talk nice and clean, fellas.

I think the difference between the old way (site ads) and the new way (youtube ads) is that now OCR is making revenue off of specific, identifiable remixes, instead of just "remixes in general."  I think it should be ok, with a couple of caveats:
1. We should update the remix agreement to include specific language about the fact that the remix videos on youtube are monetized, with the funds going to OCR and not to either the remixer or the original artist(s)
2. We should make sure that none of the original artists (Nintendo, Square Enix, etc.) would have any viable claim against OCR making money from their original work
3. We should do some budget projections to see if making money in this way is even worth the possibility of pissing off ReMixers, viewers, and potentially original artists.

Why doesn't it matter? I think it matters more than anything. If literally nobody involved with OCR makes any money whatsoever, that is entirely different than if we did. 

Again maybe we just feel very different on this. Let's say two charities want to use your music. One charity is staffed by all volunteers. Every single cent they earn goes to operations. 0% to administration. The other charity spends 30% on administration, 70% on operations. To me that is two completely different things and I feel entirely different about each one. 

Concerns about the legal ramifications should perhaps be discussed separately than everyone's subjective opinions on this. Like Dave said, in monetizing this small number of videos, OCR has also joined a network which provides substantial protection against takedowns and support for fair use. Generating revenue does not preclude fair use; profit (not revenue) is just one factor that can contribute to a fair use defense.
Everyone might think about their opinion like this:
* I'm ok with OCR monetizing YouTube videos to provide revenue for its operations, and I am not worried about the legal ramifications (copyright claims)
* I'm ok with the monetization, but worried about the legal stuff.
* I'm not ok with the monetization, even though I'm not worried about the legal angle.
* I'm not ok with the monetization, and I'm also worried about the legal stuff.

Still got a whole page of discussion to catch up on, but I see the word "profit" being thrown around a lot here and I'm not sure everyone understands what that word means.
Profit and revenue are two different things. Just keep that in mind. Putting ads on YouTube videos isn't necessarily going to mean that OCR is "profiting" off of them, especially if the money goes back into stuff like site maintenance. 
This doesn't mean that generating revenue off of YouTube videos of ReMixes is necessarily ethical either (that's what the discussion is about), but keep in mind that there is a difference. 

Whether or not this is ethical as far as OCR's relationship with the artists who have submitted this music, to me, is secondary to the concern that this is kind of damaging the good case we had for Fair Use as far as arranging copyrighted material and releasing it publicly unlicensed.
It seems silly to me to equate website ads to YouTube ads. Website ads are driven by traffic to the OCR website/forums, and the mix write-ups. On YouTube, the ad revenue is generated directly from the content that users are consuming. The ad is tied to consumption; when a user consumes the content on YT by hitting play, ad revenue is generated. It's monetizing the content itself. To me this isn't really subjective, if you look at it in terms of the actions the user takes that lead to these systems logging the transactions. (Of course there is an extent to which the evaluation of whether something is subjective/objective is in and of itself subjective)
Besides personally feeling like an outdated submission policy has kind of been invoked on us artists, dormant patent troll style, to make it "okay" for OCR to do this because they're "covered" (I personally don't mind for my music because I'm invested in this community), I'm not sure why this isn't considered downright illegal. This music is not licensed, and should not be generating revenue; site revenue should come completely from donations, because OCR is (or at least approaches in spirit) a non-profit organization.
Submission policy notwithstanding, I also feel artists should get appropriate portion of revenue. My music is creating money, why aren't I getting that money? Is it because paying me makes it legally inconvenient? Well, that, but also, it's because OCR doesn't have the technical infrastructure to organize the payouts to artists like that. And so that makes for two reasons why it shouldn't be done; it's monetizing unlicensed music and it's ethically "wrong" to not give people a piece of the pie for their hard work (and OCR literally can't do so even if they decided to because of resources).
And because the policy protects OCR to not have to pay artists at all, I think the policy is too ambiguous and needs revision to match the climate of today's internet musical consumption models (streaming and such).
On the other Spotify thread, I proudly said that OCR isn't trying to "fly under the radar" with anything we do, but I feel there's a strong case for this monetization being illegal, and now it's starting to look like we *are* flying under the radar, especially because DJP had stated one of the main points of the experiment was to see if anyone noticed it was being done.
 
As far as Brandon Strader's opening sentiment, I think it's baseless, and insults the intelligence and collective intentions of the staff, as much as similar opinions were shared when Super Audio Cart was released or when the FF6 Kickstarter went up.

I can't wait for the line at elevation burger.

I think perhaps some people draw a strong line between web ads & YouTube ads, but I'm waiting to hear why that is - it definitely deserves to be talked about, and I'm going to apologize in advance to any artists who feel we should have informed them first BEFORE even testing the waters. We see these ads as equivalent to the existing web ads, as being preferable to them, and as not representing a change in our existing policy, and we wanted a "dry run" & to measure their impact as scientifically as possible.
I'm interested in where this thread goes, and eager to answer any questions. Depending on the outcome, an official announcement will be made & sent out to artists in case folks don't monitor the forums. Some quick points:
@Brandon Strader's right in that we started testing this on June 13th of this year Since that date, $130.99 in ad revenue was generated from ALL YouTube ads combined, a portion of which goes to our channel network This is considerably less than what web ads USED to make, but ever since we tweaked them to get rid of obnoxious & irrelevant content, web ads have tanked... so this is more than they ARE making at present. It's worth noting that it took two months for anyone to really notice... in my mind this is a successful experiment JUST in terms of gauging the impact to the average viewer/listener. Ads have NOT yet been enabled for the 3000+ video back catalog - we are waiting to do that based on the outcome of this conversation and after an official announcement. At that point the ad $$$ would obviously be more, but it won't be one video, or even one artist's videos, making a huge contribution to that - it's the aggregate. We were also hoping to time that announcement with a parallel announcement of filing for 501c3 status and debuting new artist pages which do a better job of promoting the artist than our current layout. So, why would we do this at all when the Patreon is completely covering the site's operating costs, with SURPLUS?
An extremely fair question. To be honest, I hate managing the money side of OCR, I didn't sign up for this, and it's not something I derive joy in even contemplating. For the 501c3 I'm hoping someone on staff can take on the role of treasurer so I can free myself of it. Nevertheless, answers to the above question:
I'm an IT guy. I have backups for my backups. I don't like having a single point of failure, and without a meaningful form of ad revenue, the site's existence would rest solely with Patreon. Membership in a YT network has other benefits... increased reach, an extra level of protection from content matches, etc. Mainly, at least for me, I saw that our web ads completely tanked after we tweaked them to exclude annoying/irrelevant content. I don't think Google's ad model for websites is as good as their model for videos. I'd love to remove most if not all Google ads from this site, and only feature completely relevant stuff like Super Audio Cart, OverClocked Records, and also use that space to promote our existing/upcoming albums. It absolutely is; our content policy still applies, and always will. For the 501c3 filing, there would be additional clarity required surrounding what specifically counts as an operational or promotional cost, tying our hands a bit further, in addition to more specific IRS documentation requirements.

I'll *most likely* be going. Unfortunately no Marshall Art shows this time around (streifig's going to be a father by the end of the year and can't make it to MAGFest as a result D:) but maybe I'll get to do visuals for some chiptune performers again, who knows? 

Just want to say that I FINISHED BATTLE THEME (Like almost 2 weeks ago but I'm too much of a shithead to bounce everything)! Well...for now that is...until the panel decides that it is a piece of garbage. Still gotta send Strader my tracks though.

I'll be there as well...definitely not booking a suite this time! Will most likely be crashing with various shizzies. You all should go to MAG Underground this time if it winds up happening again! Such a sick lineup of bands played last year.

Dwelling of Duels and Original Sound Version present....

An open competition for any video game related and inspired bands to test their skills against one another in a battle royal to be crowned THE BEST AROUND! (nothin's gonna ever keep you down!)
 
Join in the battle and pit your band's prowess against other VGM bands! Pick your song from any game, have fun and ROCK ON!
 
For full competition details, visit....
Opposing Bloodlines: Battle of the VGM Bands
 
Submissions due SEPTEMBER 5th. Listening Party & voting during MAGFEST LABORATORIES!

Surprised there wasn't already a thread for this, but happy 30th birthday, Metroid!!  This series means so much to me, and Metroid Prime in particular is one of my favorite games ever.  Anyone doing anything to celebrate today?  I'm working my way through AM2R, the fan remake of Metroid 2 with my roommate - the full version FINALLY released today after years of hard work and the game is seriously amazing, highly recommended!

Any favorite games from the series, or even more specifically, moments from games?  I probably have too many to list, but a couple for me are:
First stepping foot in the Chozo Ruins in Metroid Prime and having the camera pan around to show the abandoned temple structures Pretty much anything to do with avoiding the SA-X when it's revealed how powerful it is and knowing you're no match If anyone's got any fan works, I'd love to see/hear them!  I've been hard at work myself over the past 6 months or so, putting together a few original tracks to try to capture what the series means to me (made a separate thread for it, if anyone's interested).  If you've made anything to celebrate Metroid recently (or maybe not so recently!), post it up!

A symphonic EP combining the stories of Chrono Cross and Xenogears into one musical journey, Xeno Cross is now available to listen in its entirety on YouTube.
There is over 30 minutes of music, and the album can be downloaded on Loudr.fm, iTunes, and Amazon.  It's a follow-up to the Chrono Trigger album, Chrono Cinematica, and a final tribute to the music of Yasunori Mitsuda.  Thanks for listening!

Yeah @zykO isn't even doing Lute of Noah anymore. Now he's doing this one instead:
 
 

Yeah @zykO isn't even doing Lute of Noah anymore. Now he's doing this one instead:
 
 

considering i've already sent you a substantial WIP of it (approx 60%) MONTHS ago that simply needs some arrangement and garnishing to get where it needs to be, i still don't understand "might be thinking of tackling" or "Possibly claimed by Zyko" ?? unless of course you're just being a jerk in which case, stfu you'll have your track

to be fair, i didn't realize that many tracks were already finished, so it appears i'm a bit behind schedule; i can have it finished by the end of this month for sure.

Sad news everyone, it seems like Zyko's claim is a little bit more unstable than I thought, not sure if we'll ever see a finished song from him that is good  I still have pretty high hopes for it though. 
On the good news side, a new WAV from Jorito for the airship theme. Really creative and interesting arrangement.   

Thanks Jorito. I think I need to check my subscription settings cause I missed your note. I'll check it fairly soonish when I don't feel sick and it's bed time.
But I just wanted to stop in to say, something really special happened. A brand new friend on Facebook just happened to post a link to her arrangement of Elia's Theme... It wasn't a claim, and she didn't know about the project at all, but now I have a brand new WAV in my hands of this really key track... very, very special sequence of events. 
Of course RiverSound's version -- if it ever exists -- is also going to be really really good. His other mix just blows my mind. But I am a lot less stressed right now knowing that we finally have coverage for this song, and a beautiful orchestral version at that. It even ends with a quick flourish of Lute of Noah which we also didn't have covered yet, but @zykO might be thinking of tackling it sometime.
OA's song got NO'd but he sent me a new version. It doesn't address all their crits, but it drastically changes the vibe of the song in a good way. 
Apart from that stuff... I'm passing out, and the thought of all the updates I need to give or check up on is making me feel sicker than I already do. So for now.. huge thanks to everyone working so hard on their songs... we're almost there

Aww man seeing how short the track list is getting really bums me out So many good tunes that won't wind up making it to the album if last minute completed remixes don't fill the gaps.

Hey everyone!

@Brandon Strader is off the forums for 2 weeks and told me to throw an update your way. Both the FF3 and FF8 albums are still going strong, and everyone should still be working on those remixes  If you need to get ahold of him and don't have any other way to contact him outside of the OCR forums, just shoot me a message and I'll see what I can do.
This album is going to be amazing.

Hey everyone!

@Brandon Strader is off the forums for 2 weeks and told me to throw an update your way. Both the FF3 and FF8 albums are still going strong, and everyone should still be working on those remixes  If you need to get ahold of him and don't have any other way to contact him outside of the OCR forums, just shoot me a message and I'll see what I can do.
This album is going to be amazing.

Hey everyone!

@Brandon Strader is off the forums for 2 weeks and told me to throw an update your way. Both the FF3 and FF8 albums are still going strong, and everyone should still be working on those remixes  If you need to get ahold of him and don't have any other way to contact him outside of the OCR forums, just shoot me a message and I'll see what I can do.
This album is going to be amazing.
In the meantime I plan on finishing my Battle theme remix in the next week so there's that.