Star Fox 64 'Credits Theme' (reorchestrated)

[MetroidHunter26]

Well I used Finale to create it and I put through FL Studio (the Demo version) with some sound fonts I found mostly Squidfonts Orchestral soundfont.

The reverb is alittle too much but if you like it enough it might not bother you.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ojyjdm5ryym

So What do you think?

[kalking]

This is quite a good mix. There are very minor issues sometimes, where the ambient sounds become stronger than the main melody, which lessens the impact of the song, and there are places where the song as a whole could be more powerful/dramatic.

I love the entrance. ^^

At .29, the main theme comes in - needs to be louder! As the dramatic ending, this theme needs the focus, not the 'beat'.

3.00 and on, same thing, theme needs to be at the forefront of the song, it gets lost in the background here.

Right before 3.44, where the main theme kicks in for the last time, it comes in so slow and quiet that you almost miss it. More fanfare to announce it's arrival!

Some of the sound files are low quality, but you're working with a demo so understandable - these are good ^^.

One thing that I will say is that since this is a Remix site, you may get turned down by judges even after fixing the above, on the basis that you barely stray from the original song. This is not a bad thing - reorchestrations are good. But we all know how tough OC's judges are on songs being almost the same as the original in terms of musical order/content.

I do like this mix a lot, and look forwards to future additions/subtractions in it by you. ^^

~KK

[Rozovian]

The intro is heavy on the bass. Cutting it a few dB wouldn't really lose much (except in direct comparison), and it'd improve the overall processing when there's not as much bass pushing the compression.

At around 0:21 it gets synthy. Long strings don't have enough attack, probably a problem with the samples. Use other samples.

0:42 high bells a bit too loud and EQd too high. Take those down a bit. The bell tremolo is especially painful, see what you can do about that.

1:14 harp arpeggio needs EQ, it's just... there, no highs, no lows. Brass cuts into headphones, probably some interference effect from the harp. See what you can do about that, looking for the exact frequency they've got in common and dropping that slightly should do it.

1:45 crashes are too weak.

2:00 bell sounds weak, you could try dropping it an octave. Brass tends to lack highs. Not just a problem around here. Sounds like it's over-EQd.

2:30 nice calm section. Strings' long attack is a problem here tho.

2:56 transition is a bit too sudden.

3:40 drumroll synthy, also at 4:00, 4:15

4:35 interference or whatever is cutting into my ears here too. Check the frequency and cut it a bit from the instruments causing it.

The last three notes are redundant imo. I get what you were doing with them, but they didn't work. imo, anyway. Might work if they were shorter, but no promises.

Overall, this is pretty impressive. The writing is great for most part, tho it could sue some humanization at some places. Especially repeated sections and drumrolls and bell/crash tremolos. The processing needs some work, most of the stuff listed above are pointers about that. This could be great, god luck with it.

Remixer, listeners, please take the time to answer the questions in this post.

[DZComposer]

Note: I am not going to speak in audio engineer's terms (Needs EQ, needs compression, etc.) I am going to speak as an arranger and performance judge. There will be different ways to accomplish my suggestions, how you do so is up to you.

SPECIFIC AREAS:

Ease off the bass drum int he beginning. It is drowning out the bassline.

When the violins come in with the melody after the intro, consider not using a slow strings sound here. This part should me a smooth legato, and this makes it sound choppy, and some of the shorter notes do not come out.

0:44 The tuning between the flute, piccolo, and glock here is horrendous. It almost is bad enough to sound like a minor second here. If you have to lay on the pitch wheel to fix it, do so.

0:55-1:00+: That bass drum hit sounds out of place. Either remove it or make it much quieter Also, the tuning is bad here too.

~1:07 Generally, it is bad practice to roll on Glockenspiel in the world of real percussionists. Unless you have a specific reason for it, consider removing the rolls to create a more realistic performance.

~1:13 Woodwinds sound out of tune with eachother, badly once again. The harp is WAY too loud. A real harp does not stick out like that. Also, consider panning the harp left. It sounds odd coming out of the bass side of the orchestra. Where are your basses here? All I hear is timpani and bass drum down there.

1:34 bad tuning in the woodwinds

~1:45 Too much timpani/Bass drum again.

~2:00 I LOVE the use of tubes here. Just one problem, they are a little loud. Ease off the velocity a bit. If the samples are velocity layered, the tubes should have more ring a bit quieter too, which would add to it.

~2:40 when the basses come in, they drown out the cello melody.

2:56 WAY too much bass drum.

~3:15 when the trumpets come in with the nonmelody part here, short notes.

3:45 Violins need to be the most prominent sound here, NOT the harp. This should be a grand fortissimo, as it is the climax of the piece. The part that was carried in the horn in the original should be the second-most prominent part. Ease off on your bass percussion a bit.

4:22 This crescendo would be a little bit more dramatic if you started the timpani a little quieter. The ending volume was perfect.

4:41 What the heck is with this timapni roll here? It makes no musical sense. Consider holding it back until 4:43, when the trumpets come in. I think it would fit berter there.

5:06 Is that timpani or bass drums? I am assuming timpani based on the original. If it is, bring it up at least an octave. Timpani DO NOT go that low. Timpani should spend most of their time between the G below Middle C and the G below that. There are possible notes above and below, but this is the prime range of timpani.

The last three notes I can barely hear over the bass drum/timpani.

OVERALL:

Arrangement: Very nice arrangement, but has a small number of issues. One thing that the judges may nail you for, though, is that it sounds a lot like the original. But I personally don't consider that a bad thing.

Performance: this is where this arrangement falls apart.

Okay, put the bass drum beater down for a second. The bass drum is the most powerful instrument in the orchestra. It is power that should not be abused. The only time it is acceptable for the bass drum to overpower the melodic instruments of the orchestra is in single-hit moments of impact, and even then it is a risky thing to do. This instrument should never be the primary voice.

Your timpani writing is much too loud and too much too low. Remember, G1-G2 is the primary range of timpani. Timpani are melodic for a reason: So that they can add flavor to the melodic parts of the piece. I didn't notice this, but it is good timpani writing: never make Timpani play fast without providing time to allow tuning of all drums to needed notes. Pedaling is not as quick as depressing a valve or string.

Where are your basslines? At some points I wonder if the even exist. Many times, they are covered by percussion.

Your use of harp is not effective. It is too loud, and sticks to a very narrow range of the instrument. I know it was like that in the original, but I know from experience from playing with this source piece myself that the harp parts sound much better when they take advantage of the harp's range, which is very close to the piano's.

This piece suffers from serious balance issues all throughout. Melody is the most important. Countermelody is next if it is there, followed by harmony, followed by bassline, followed by everything else. Not a solid rule, but a good guideline.

Woodwind tuning. Is horrible. I don't like to nag people for samples, because I was one in the position of not being able to buy nice stuff, but horrendous tuning is not acceptable. Out of tune sounds bad, period. You can have nice sounding stuff with fake sounding instruments, but you can't have nice sounding stuff with out-of-tune instruments. If you have the ability to edit them, please tune them. If not, either find out how much pitch wheel you need to set at the beginning or find different sounds.

This piece has such amazing potential. Work on the performance, and you'll have quite a nice one. I am looking forward to hearing it again when it is more polished.

[MrSneak]

Not nearly enough Star Fox 64 remixes on the site, BTW.

I listen to the original of this frequently, and as has been stated before, it doesn't stray from the original hardly at all.

While I'm not a judge, I think one of the most important reasons to add creative writing to a track, is because most video game music wasn't intended for focused listening and it tends to be boring. This track, being a credits tune, is already designed for focused listening, and therefore I feel a straight rearrangement is probably fair game. Who knows if the judges feel the same way, but in my mind, OCRemix is about appreciating game music in an outside-the-game context.

Anyway, I can't say anymore that hasn't already been said. I echo some of the remarks about the volume and quality of certain samples, otherwise this mix is dramatic and enjoyable, and keeping it symphonic is definitely the way to go. I think if you were using live instruments (yeah, I know that's probably impossible) this would be a winner, no questions asked.

[MetroidHunter26]

Heres a better version but I will also say that I wont submit it as is. I'll record it with a real orchestra and submit it like that

http://www.mediafire.com/?mjz25myy22z

[DZComposer]

If I take you for your word that you say you are arranging this for live performance, then you need to pay careful attention to the things I am about to tell you. Especially regarding range of instruments. Even if you are not doing live performance, this will make your arrangements more realistic.

Note, when I say low or high I am referring to pitch. For volume, loud and soft.

0:01 That timpani hit is too loud, Tubular bell note out of range, too low. Tubular bell standard range: Middle C (C3) to F4. Some fancier sets have the low extension which only goes down the the G below Middle C. Custom range instruments exist too. Not all orchestras have access to such instruments, so try to stay in the C3-F4 range.

~0:07-0:13;0:16-0:20 Too much bass drum. That should not be heard over the strings.

0:42 The glock gliss sounds unrealistic. Percussionists gliss on mallet instruments kind of slide the mallet across the keys. Make sure you notate this is a gliss for your live performance. Keep in mind, Glock is notated an octave low.

0:42 Woodwind tuning is god awful.

0:45 Too much trumpet and bass drum here. Back that off a little.

~0:57 Have that long trumpet note re-articulate at the phrase change. Holding across that bar line makes it sound awkward. Also, I would suggest writing these two trumpet parts as a "duet" between two trumpet players for your live performance. I think a section sound here would be a little too heavy. The trumpets need to be balanced with the woodwinds. Trumpets came in too loud and stayed too loud.

1:13 Percussion: The double-hit pickup: Is it Timpani or bass drum? Firstly, its too loud. Secondly, if it is Timpani, write it up an octave. Impossible to play on the real thing as is.

1:13 Melodic: Harp is still too narrow in rage. Start the glisses an octave lower. Less trumpet.

1:36 The harmony sounds off here. It may be tuning related, though, as the woodwind tuning is bad in this section too.

1:44 Timpani part is impossible to play on real timpani. At least an octave too low, maybe even 2. It is also too loud.

2:00 Tumbular bell below range

2:12 Trumpet entrance is staggered and obvious. These two parts should enter at the same time, or at least create the illusion that they do.

2:56-3:13 Too much bass drum. Also, consider taking out one of the sixteenth notes in the fourth beats of the bass drum part. It will sound muddy on the real thing.

3:16 Long trumpet note sticks out like a pimple. Also, it wouldn't hurt to make those notes shorter.

3:13-3:39 Why switch bass drum part to timpani? It doesn't sound bad, but is unexpected. Also, note is too low. Octave up, please. Timpani shouldn't muddy-up when you do the sixteenth notes if you wish to leave them here. Be aware that at this part requires pedaling. Give the player ample rest time to re-tune before making him play again after this part.

~3:40 Cymbal roll sounds odd. Like a ride cymbal. Wrong sound. Try rolling on a crash cymbal, it's closer to the sound of a real suspended cymbal. If you have a sample that used yarn mallets, use it. Bass drum and timpani rolls need to start and end with the strings. It sounds really odd having them start late and end early. Timpani is too low.

3:46 WAY too much harp. Make it MUCH softer. It should just be a texture. Also, real harps cannot overpower the full orchestra at fortissimo like that un-miced.

3:46-4:16 Timapni, too low and too loud.

4:00 too much trumpet

~4:23 Timpani too low

~4:30 Brass tuning is bad

4:41 Timpani too low

4:51 Timpani and tubular bells are too low. There is some funky dissonance here. Not sure where it is coming from, but it just sounds bad. Check for weird intervals such as minor seconds and minor sevenths. Check sustain pedal usage. It could also be tuning, but if it is it's really really really out of tune.

5:06 Timpani should be the dominant sound here (for once!). But, you are WAY too low. Do not go below the F below C2 unless you feel it is necessary. Remember that there is only one drum capable of going below that F, and pedaling that low sounds muddy. NEVER go below C1. That is the lowest real timpani note.

5:06 Either lose the tubular bells here, or change the rhythm they are playing. They sound awkward. Remember, range for tubes: C3-F4

Strings barely audible on last 3 chords, I could really only hear the timpani. The timpani should cease being primary sound here.

OVERALL

Sadly, I did not really see much improvement. Still probably not enough change-up to pass judges. Not sure if live performance would sway them or not.

Balance. You need a better sense of balance. Too many times the wrong instrument dominated, and when the right one did, it was too much. To paraphrase Shrek, music is like an onion: it has layers. These layers must be properly aligned. Melody needs to sound like part of the music, not like it is on top of it.

Part writing:

Strings: You probably used a full string ensemble patch. Real orchestra string parts read as separate parts: Violins 1, Violins 2, Viola, Violoncello, and Contrabass. Each of these may be further divided.

Be careful when transcribing. Violin cannot physically go below the G below Middle C (C3). That is open on the G string. Viola C2-B below C6. Cello: C1-A below C5. Most modern basses have a low-C extension. While many do not, I would not be afraid to use it unless you know the orchestra playing for you does not have bassists with these instruments. E0(C0 with extension)-C4. Do not break-up a melody between string instruments unless you know what you are doing. These instruments not only have different range, the sound different too. Adding two mid-phrase melody notes on viola for a part you want in violin can be a dangerous thing to do. Either put the whole part in viola or up it an octave.

Woodwinds:

I didn't really notice any range issues. Odd usage at points.

Brass:

Trumpets constantly too loud. Overall pretty decent writing, though there were some awkward uses of trumpet in a couple of places.

Percussion:

Timpani writing was horrible. Literally impossible to play on real timpani. It is imperative that you read this article on timpani (knowing bass clef is required for understanding score snippits): http://members.cox.net/datimp/mus1.html

While not really intended for game remixers, this article is great for game remixers, as the example is a super mario bros. "remix," a familier tune to all of us.

One thing I want to add, most orchestras have access to a five-drum timpani set. Note that the fifth drum is higher, not lower, than the standard 4.

The original may have been that low, but it is not realistic. Star Fox 64's score is full of prime examples of bad timpani writing.

Ease off on the bass drum. Often it was too loud.

Do some research on every instrument you are using in your piece, so that you can properly transcribe a playable part. If you hand the conductor something that isn't playable, he won't have the ensemble play it. Also, consult with the conductor. Oh, and don't be a pompous ass about your work to the conductor. Trust his intuition. He's worked with real orchestras for a long time.

I'm no real orchestrator either, but this is good stuff to know. Even if you are not writing for real orchestra, it make your stuff sound more realistic to write realistic parts. I'm no expert. There are graduate degrees offered in this stuff.

[MetroidHunter26]

As much as I would like to fix it. I Know how we'll play it but If you guys want to fix it go ahead >__> I just make the orchestrations.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3dzyejnzxjm

Theres the Midi and for some reason the instruments on it are wrong (like the French Horn has the Choir patch >__>)

[DZComposer]

Well, you implied that this was a mockup of a live performance arrangement. The instrument range and balance issues I noted needed to be addressed if that was the version you were planning to use.

Oh, and keep in mind that this will sound much different when played by real instruments.

[MetroidHunter26]

Well, you implied that this was a mockup of a live performance arrangement. The instrument range and balance issues I noted needed to be addressed if that was the version you were planning to use.

Oh, and keep in mind that this will sound much different when played by real instruments.

I know and it will be great! In Janurary is when we'll be able to practice and most of the instrumentation I have done in the sheet music is playable. Also It sounds much more better with Finale instruments so >__> but I'll take everything you said to advice!

[DZComposer]

I looked at the MIDI file you posted, and noticed that a lot of what I heard was likely caused by the samples you used. They do it no justice. The biggest issue with the MIDI was the use of CC7 (volume) for dynamics. I think that is what caused most of your balance issues. I am not familiar with the way Finale exports MIDI, so I do not know if it did that or if you did. Expression and velocity together generally work better. When I loaded it into my stuff, it clipped to hell.

Only thing I really noticed were some Timpani notes that would have required weird pedaling, but moving the questionable notes up an octave works well. You may need a five drum set for this, even without that change.

If you don't mind, I would like to make a mockup for you. Squidfont does this arrangement no justice at all. You are definately a much better orchestrator than that mockup suggested, and I would like to show the rest of the people here that.

Also, I am curious about the orchestra that will be playing this, if you don't mind giving me some detail.

If you're wondering, the Finale instruments are a lite version of GPO ( http://www.garritan.com ). A fine library for making mockups.

[MetroidHunter26]

Well the Orchestra that will be playing this is a high school orchestra the one I'm going to be in and my conductor says she wont be able to take a look at it till janurary >__> dang. but All of us are good don't get me wrong and I did submit the finale version to my other site so it can be distributed to lots of people so they can have a chance to do this.

and you can go ahead and do the mock up I just want to hear how it would sound with some good orchestra sounds >_> and the only good one I have is the Trumpet one cause it's so realistic to what a trumpet should sound and I play trumpet so I should know . but I wish I had the Finale 2009 to use for my orchestrations >__> but I have no money.

but to all that aside thanks to everyone for the comments! I'll be sure to incorrporate it too when we play this.

[DZComposer]

I loaded it into Cubase, and have ran it through EWQLSO Gold, VDL2 for percussion, and VOTA choir. I'll make sure you get a recording of it after I balance it to my samples. Note that I will be making a few "conducting" decisions here.

[DZComposer]

Okay, here is a mockup. I had to strip a lot of dynamics-related MIDI CC data out of it, so I had to start from scratch balance-wise.

http://www.corneriasound.com/misc/sf64_reorch.mp3

There is still a lot that needs to be done on the balance of parts, but I thought I would show you what I have so far. Also, somehow the bass range sounds got boosted a bit somewhere between render and MP3 encoding. I also still need to put in some long note dynamics.

Here are the changes I made:

* Corrected a minor second created in the tubular bells at 2:02

* Rolls and trills removed from glock part. These are not typically done on this instrument.

* Timpani part altered a bit in a couple of parts to eliminate some weird pedaling.

* Trumpet part ~:055 is a duet between 2 players instead of section. Also, I broke-up a long note here as I suggested earlier.

* Flute/Piccolo doubled part at 2:03 changed to flute solo.

* Set piccolo part up an octave in a couple of places to bring out the piccolo's distinct sound.

* Removed bottom note of choir chords to remove the muddy sound created by the low interval. Also made choir blend with orchestra better.

* Used Gong instead of China Cymbal

* All cymbal rolls are sampled, not sequenced from hits as before.

* Removed doubled parts that caused sample phasing. (IE, removed one of Tpt 1 and 2 were both playing same note, etc.)

* Made use of short-note samples in brass and strings.

* Removed tuba part at 2:30 that was doubled with basses. The basses cover it fine, so I did this to keep the string sound pure.

* Rhythm of tom part at 4:22 changed to match brass and strings.

Looks like a lot, but it is just minor stuff. I did not change any parts significantly, and most I didn't even touch.

I've always loved the Copland-esqe part at 1:50. You made it sound very good.

This is an excellent arrangement. I can't wait to hear more from you, especially once you get better samples. I also can't wait to hear the live performance.

This is the best piece in SF64's score. I did a piano reduction of this piece about two years ago, though it was nothing more than that. Someday I will do my own orchestration of this piece.

[MetroidHunter26]

Hey sweet! Thanks! I love how it sounds!

[MetroidHunter26]

This is my final version of the midi so hopefully it's right on the mark.

http://www.mediafire.com/?c2jn0znmhzm

but the percussion is not realy well done There should be only

Snare Drum

Bass Drum

Crash Cymbals (also reverse cymbals)

Bell Tree

and the Gong at the very end (I made it into crash cymbals so it would sound better midi wise.)

and the 7th measure in the end is a 5/4 so I changed that I also added a couple of your edits from your post too!

if you can do this again for me I would realy Apprieciate it!

[MrSneak]

Link appears to be broken

[MetroidHunter26]

fixed the link.

[DZComposer]

This is my final version of the midi so hopefully it's right on the mark.

http://www.mediafire.com/?c2jn0znmhzm

but the percussion is not realy well done There should be only

Snare Drum

Bass Drum

Crash Cymbals (also reverse cymbals)

Bell Tree

and the Gong at the very end (I made it into crash cymbals so it would sound better midi wise.)

and the 7th measure in the end is a 5/4 so I changed that I also added a couple of your edits from your post too!

if you can do this again for me I would realy Apprieciate it!

I just listened to it on my crappy MIDI driver on my general purpose PC. Didn't notice too many differences in melodic parts(I'm assuming that the choir "oos" were supposed to be a flute). Though you added a mallet percussion instrument. Was it a marimba or a xylo? I couldn't tell on this thing, and don't have a sequencer on this machine to check it.

I still heard toms in there, and you said there aren't any. What are they supposed to be? And by bell tree do you mean the mark tree/"wind chimes"? Some people get bell tree and mark tree mixed up, and they are different things. (An example is this site: http://www.sunlitedrum.com/drums/productpages/BellTree.htm what is pictured is a mark tree, NOT a bell tree: http://www.andproductions.com/images/bell_tree_LP.jpg)

[MetroidHunter26]

Ok I relized there was a problem with the strings so Here is the TRUE FINAL VERSION. and this one still has crappy midi and such...

http://www.mediafire.com/?dvnmyxluzdz

Well some of it is the same but some I fixed and added more stuff.

Now with the issue of the instruments

For Bell Tree I want it Mark Tree cause that's what we have at the High school so yeah that one

and if it's a tom it's supposed to be a bass drum.

The only percussion is Bass Drum, Cymbals, Mark Tree, and that's on percussion 2 staff and the percussion one is only snare drum.

I again would appreciate it if you would help out

[RemixedT]

Ok I relized there was a problem with the strings so Here is the TRUE FINAL VERSION. and this one still has crappy midi and such...

http://www.mediafire.com/?dvnmyxluzdz

Well some of it is the same but some I fixed and added more stuff.

Now with the issue of the instruments

For Bell Tree I want it Mark Tree cause that's what we have at the High school so yeah that one

and if it's a tom it's supposed to be a bass drum.

The only percussion is Bass Drum, Cymbals, Mark Tree, and that's on percussion 2 staff and the percussion one is only snare drum.

I again would appreciate it if you would help out

I entered this in my FL Studio (demo version), and it turned out excelent! except for one thing: the bells at the end. Other than that, everything's okay!

Note: MetroidHunter26, I remember you from Ninsheetmusic.net! This is Tgamer240, or on this site, RemixedT!