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Norfair - Work In Progress


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PROJECT ON HOLD

Oddly enough, I wasn't going to post this up. But it was suggested in another topic that I go ahead and post the WIP here. Plus not to derail the fine HoboKa thread, it'd be good to start my own. :-P

Newest:

http://www.mediafire.com/?jmynymzthyy

Old Versions:

http://www.mediafire.com/?4nnhyzyxytz

http://www.mediafire.com/?5mcryohmnjm

http://www.mediafire.com/?yznchnzfz3a

http://www.mediafire.com/?tx5tz40vgdx

http://www.mediafire.com/?yidmw5jwljg

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yjztgnwyke2

Source:

I tried to have a little bit more direction in this then the last thing I did. I'm still very new to the software and learning what's what can be a handfull. So, I run into things going 'I know what I want, how do I get it?' :-P I'm also new to the mixing/mastering bit, so any suggstions there would be helpful. (google is great for this as well. <3 google)

My first thought with this was to get a theme that would work really well with a fast half time feel drum beat. As I went thorough the leads, I hit the z3ta acid base 04 that I liked a lot, and used it for a very echo type of lead. Since the lead was very echo-tastic, I made just about everything I could have that sort of echo, which I kinda like.

In playing with the mixing, I did panning for the low synth left to center, right to center, along with the volume controls. If I can get the hang of it, I'd like to play with surround panning as well. I used z3ta again on the real throaty bass chords.

One of the neat things with the origional, is that it's technically in a 4/4 time, but it uses a lot of triplets, so the step sequencer that I'm using for this is all in 12 steps a beat to do 16th and 16th triplets, which I change up here and there, esp in the decending bit where the entire drum 'feel' is a swung triplet feel.

So, Where is this at the moment? AKA:

the hewhoisiam checklist:

I'd like to at least give the song something more original in the way of interpretation Drawing a blank on what I really want to do though. I did want to add something like you'd typically hear in DnB transitions and builds. I'll be working on at least knowing how to do these, even if they don't work here :?

While I like the bass sound of the bass playing the chords, it's very simple right now, I may see if I can do something to make it more interesting. Either tying it in with the beat, or some writing of my own.

I thought about looking into a slice editor for the beat, mostly to change the pitches as the song progresses, and just to play with in the mean time. I have just discovered the wheel pitch shifting, but it's only to shift max 1 step per note, and doesn't work with the step sequencer.

I like the decending bit at 1:22, and selfishly want it to be longer, I'll have to play with that. I actually would like the whole thing to be longer.

I encoded this with foobar 2000 using the lame interface because razorlame decided to hate me, can someone tell me if it's an okay submission format? (This will not be submitted, but I need to know if I need to make changes to the format)

AND in other news, I really should change my sig now that I've beaten deadspace.

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...BTW Hewhoisiam, I just listened to your most recent track. You don't want it peer reviewed, but I'm going to anyway, so brace yourself!

I don't see why you don't post up here - this isn't half bad, IMO. This is Norfair II from Super Metroid, right? The interpretation is slightly conservative, but the style is interesting enough niterpretation for this, so no problem there. The deep swells are interesting and keep the song together, but should be used a little more sparing than they are. Sometimes the harmony is odd, but tweeking the harmonies isn't too hard. I'd recommend sticking to the original harmonies a bit more until you get an ear for what works and what doesn't (which just takes time, practice and some peer reviews to guide you). The lead starting at 1:01 is odd, I'd change the instrument there to something with less built-in polyphony. Your drums are very well done - I'd recommend some dynamic work, but still very nice. The EQing is very well done, as well - something I don't normally say, so kudos :) Not OC material, but still an interesting interpretation of the piece.

See, that didn't hurt, right? Post your stuff here on the WIP forums - it's what it's there for! Please, I love looking over other people's stuff and helping when I can...

..and sorry, Hoboka, for reviewing someone else's music on your thread. I'd love to give you more feedback when you fix the link. Post more, Hewhoisiam, and fix the link, Hoboka!

We were hijacking Hoboka's thread :oops:

@ 1:01 lead: Yeah, this works here, but I'm not in love with it. I'm actually looking at another soft synth working on building a sound I like. Is slow werk.

@ drums: If I get to call one of my strengths, it's being a drummer really helps with making the beats and knowing what I want. The beats for this song total time took me maybe 10 minutes. XD I wish I knew enough to make the rest of the process go so smooth. Thanks!

@ EQ: I had to run eq and go 'no, I don't like that' Like 4 times. It's a learning process, but I'd hoped it was close.

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Hah! I got you!

Seeing as you posted this in it's own forum, I feel obligated to give some more depth to my review :))

First, the submission standards are...

1. Submissions must be MP3 format audio files.
  • Bitrate must not exceed 192kbps.
  • Bitrate must be high enough to convey detail; a 96kbps average is suggested as a minimum.
  • Audio must be 44.1kHz Stereo.
  • Do not tag or name your file with "OC ReMix", "www.ocremix.org", etc.; we will do this ourselves if your submission is accepted.

2. Submissions must be 6.00MB (6,291,456 bytes) or less. 3. Submissions must have an original title. Do not name your submission after the source track, the game title, or yourself.

(More detail on that is here, http://www.ocremix.org/info/Submission_Standards_and_Instructions)

Now, onto the music...

Like I said before, the bassy swells are nice where they are (for now), but in the middle/end they get a little boring. Cut them out sometimes - that will keep them interesting while they are there.

Also, the drums are very good right now, but there's no dynamics in them at all. Play around with the velocity to change the dynamics around for each part. When you play drums, each strike of the hats isn't the same, is it?

When the melody comes in, the instruments and effects are neat, but it's too loud right now. Turn them down so they don't contrast the rest of the song so much.

The bass instrument at 0:45 is bland. Use a different sample, add reverb or delay, or something to make it more striking - it carries the chord, but as is the swells dominate and make the chords sound weird there.

The polysynth at 0:58 has a 5th parallel built into it. As it moves, it ends up sounding bad, due to parallel 5ths... Change the synth settings (not necessarily the synth) so there is no more line above the original line.

The triplets at 1:23 work. Cool switch up there :)

At 1:30, I don't think the swells should come back quite yet. It makes the part a bit stale. Try bringing them back at 1:56, instead; it'll make the two sections vary ever so slightly - variety is the spice of life :)

Of course, it ends pretty quickly. It could be longer, so... ya.

Like I said, neat interpretation of the mix. I never thought of this song sounding like this before - and it works well too (an added bonus, I'm sure). I'll restate that the EQ isn't too bad in the mix - it's the level issues I believe your hearing. Nice in general - now get to work on another mix :P

BTW - I didn't want to post all of this in Hoboka's thread - it wouldn't've been polite :)

Keep them coming :))

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Quick update: http://www.mediafire.com/?yidmw5jwljg

Good thing I checked the file before I posted this XD The one I first had has nothing but the drums and bass on it. Needs schmoe melody!

Changed the bass, added a bass echo. May be a bit on the busy side. It really stands out more

Changed swells, quieted places. Still playing with this and trying to decide if I want to change the swell part in places rather then remove it entirely.

Humanized drums.

Changed levels/balance issues somewhat.

Changed second synth, though I may look for something else also.

Added a break near the beginning. (I don't like it as is, got to see what I want to do with it, but I do want some sort of break there. I do like that instrument though...)

Still want to do something more original to this. It's a pretty straight port now.

The fade out ending is lazy imo:tomatoface: Especially mine, which is like, drop to 0 after a build up and fade out. (that's where the original repeats)

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woo woO wOO WOO... (That's the break :P)

Ya, I like the idea of a break there, but... not that. Perhaps you can break the melody apart and have a piece of it open that part there, leading into the melody that occurs right after. It'll connect better, and without the rest of the instruments there it'll still work as a break.

The entire thing sounds very centered. That makes for too much sound in one area. Play with the panning - you'll find it much easier to hear everything and it'll make EQ and level work much easier.

The bass is better in this version. It could be a little more prominent, but better than before.

I've noticed that the swells are quieter sometimes. It helps the piece sound better overall :)

You changed the polysynth, but it still has the parallel built into it... Listen to it - it sounds like two notes are playing at the same time for any note. Try to find an instrument that doesn't do that. If your adding the notes manually, understanding that some of those notes are in the source... well to be honest they sounded terrible there too. I'd just get rid of the top line altogether.

If you want to add something to this piece, disect the original into tiny snipits. That often helps you get an idea as where to take the piece from there. One idea is to leave a lot of what you've got as it is and use it as a springboard to some more interpretive work, bringing the conservative stuff back in at the end. It'll create a closed system that'll sound complete in the end, and it'll make the piece longer. You'll also introduce more original material into the piece, so it takes care of a lot of issues and sounds cool at the same time :)

It sounds better, but there's room for improvement, so keep at it!

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To give you an idea, that wah wah wah WAH sound is in a folder named 'failed test place holder'

I'm going to pan the bass and see if that doesn't bring it out (using 2 bases here actually)

I'll play with it tonight and tomorrow. I did plan to work on it today already >.> got side tracked.

I'm not understanding what about the parallel makes this sound bad I guess? Is this some 'the sounds clash' thing that I can't really hear? The piece is written in parallel, so I can take the top off of it; I figured it was there to fatten the sound a little bit. It's a 5 note difference, rather than the entire octave, so maybe that's it. I always thought of it as a sort of eerie sound.

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well I'm sure that thasauce and vgmix won't mind this, but well, it's def. not ocr ready yet. There's a lot of dissonance - I'm sorry - I didn't feel like reading your wall of text - so if its intentional that's fine. Well not really. The J's hate dissonance lol. It may be your synths that make it that way. The drums also sound too loud and it almost clips at parts, so volume wise it needs to go down a bit as well. As for the arrangement, minus the off key-ness, its original enough. Though I'm not so sure if the other super metroid enthusiasts would consider this remix to be doing the source tune justice. I feel that you could do a lot better - big potential here methinks.

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I'm not understanding what about the parallel makes this sound bad I guess? Is this some 'the sounds clash' thing that I can't really hear? The piece is written in parallel, so I can take the top off of it; I figured it was there to fatten the sound a little bit. It's a 5 note difference, rather than the entire octave, so maybe that's it. I always thought of it as a sort of eerie sound.

Eh... It's just something that can ALWAYS be made to sound better. Parallel octaves aren't good, either, and I'm glad you opted for something else. Try using 3rds or 6ths (even if it's not in the original), or even using a counter harmony :P. Parallel 5ths are a nasty business.

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Eh... It's just something that can ALWAYS be made to sound better. Parallel octaves aren't good, either, and I'm glad you opted for something else. Try using 3rds or 6ths (even if it's not in the original), or even using a counter harmony :P. Parallel 5ths are a nasty business.

well, they'd work in a horror flick, cuz it'd convey that feel of unease.

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You know, I had the same problem as a kid. You know my solution? I smashed em' in anyway...

Terrible advice, by the way. Don't follow my mistakes.

HA! I remember those days! I was very much a 'hammer' kid. I had/have an assortment of things that make the square go into the hole real good. Well, in this case, I have them all at the end of the project (the midi's at least, got rid of the soft synths)

Update: http://www.mediafire.com/?tx5tz40vgdx

Changes:

1) Panned the bases to add some separation, added a sharper to bring out bass 2.

2) Played with levels and compressor (I added that shaper and the compressor started to eat a few of my parts 8-O) May need to up the overall level again.

3) Changed the break at the beginning. I didn't want half time, this is swung 2/3rd time. (1 to 1.5 ratio) It works, but I'm not sure that it doesn't kill the flow.

4) Balanced and changed drum parts

5) Re-worked 'swell' levels

6) Took out 5th parallel and went back to original synth on the second melody

7) Stumbled on Adhesive Boy's rendition of Noirfair, puts mine to shame :tomatoface:

Checklist:

1) Do something with the end, other than 'fade out' end.

2) Too conservative, need to go steal things and use them.

3) Bass still seems somewhat simple in the middle, rework/rebalance

4) I've got to see how to work effects into just a part of a piece of the project. I can add them to tracks, but I can't fade them up and down the way I can use track envelopes for panning and volume.

-H

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Update: http://www.mediafire.com/?yznchnzfz3a

Did:

Breaks, something different.

Levels

Misc. little things.

left to do:

Ending something

Bass (maybe changed, dunno)

Figure out the compressor

Length too short

Thoughts: I can't seem to get a sound I like in the break. I added bits, but it seems more like it took from the overall coherence of the thing. When it was basically the theme, it seemed much more like it went together. I'm just adding to my collection of failed things that I put in those 2 spots. That 'theme and direction' I liked earlier is now confused again. Needs a direction methinks. Or I need to keep a few of the ideas that I like, scrap and re-design the rest. Mayhaps in a new project:puppyeyes:

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Hmmm sounds like improvement...er at the start. But Hewowism, you don't have any say for how my synths fit in with my mixes when you use that awful "pop-corn" synth lol.

Also...there is still a lot of dissonance my boi. I think that you need to practice that "ear" for key. If it's not your ear...then mess around with the pitch until it sounds good, because as this mix is, the off key-ness is not doing the job, sorry dude, but sugar-coating won't help you improve T_T...ironic as it's coming from me, but yeah, keep at it homeslice.

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Hmmm sounds like improvement...er at the start. But Hewowism, you don't have any say for how my synths fit in with my mixes when you use that awful "pop-corn" synth lol.

Also...there is still a lot of dissonance my boi. I think that you need to practice that "ear" for key. If it's not your ear...then mess around with the pitch until it sounds good, because as this mix is, the off key-ness is not doing the job, sorry dude, but sugar-coating won't help you improve T_T...ironic as it's coming from me, but yeah, keep at it homeslice.

:-P I like my criticism right between the eyes, as long as it's constructive. As far as sound goes, some Seinheisser cans come this week by the mail, I'm hoping it helps. And it's easier for me to criticize your synths HARDER because you have the whole key/sound/dissonance thing down. So I can hear what I complain about. That, and I'm not sure what key signature this is in, because the source is using that little half step off thing. >.> That's also why I havn't varied much from the normal bass line, those chords are pretty much it as far as me knowing the key of this thing.

Erm, which part is this awful 'popcorn' synth. It may be the one that I keep changing and changing back for lack of anything better :oops:

The first idea was to have this sort of dark dirty sounding Noirfair with the fast beat. Now the idea is 'I don't know what's next' :-P I still want to get away from the source some more, and fix that cop out ending at the very least.

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haha, well fine be that way about my synths...I'm just as hobo-ish as you man (when it comes to synths/soundfonts and the like) I can't ever tell what key songs are in, but I can tell when they sound off - funny how that works. Anyways, for you to find out what key it's in, look at the root notes of the chords. If they are inverted chords, look at the "middle" notes...that should give you a general idea.

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...and I'm not sure what key signature this is in, because the source is using that little half step off thing.

Ya, this piece is difficult to hear the 'key' because it isn't in one - in the traditional sense. It's in the old Phrygian church mode - 1 - 2b - 3b - 4 - 5 - 6b - 7b - 8(1) - Those are the scale degrees. Another way to think about it is to start on the 'E' and play all of the white keys up to the next 'E'. That's why I'm such an advocate of Counterpoint - weird scales don't affect a thing, whereas in Harmony... :)

Also...there is still a lot of dissonance my boi.

Actually, Hoboka, I don't hear that much 'dissonance' in this... Point out where; I'd like to hear what your talking about. Are you sure it's not the scale integrated in the music?

Take this into account when (if) you mess around with the chords - you'll be surprised how much this'll help.

Listening to this again, I like the break better than before. No more woos :) The synth DOES sound like Ultima Underworld, though... I feel the break should feel tense, but not intense, if you know what I mean. Try building up to the break, then suddenly calming down, leading into the next part better.

The bass could use some quick notes every so often to build up the sonic field a little bit... Just a few, though.

The end sounds like it's building up to really explode on the listener, but then it ends... It leaves me feeling empty... Add some more where it just unloads on the listener. It's what we (well, I) want :P

I didn't even think about the key of the piece. I hope my comment will help out in some way.

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I'll get crackin' in a bit. Math in the morning makes braining go bubye, a little cool down time is an order :sleepdepriv:

What you said about the chords makes sense (I know some theory, mostly from jazz band) And I know my flat scales at least (not as good at sharps, minors and harmonics)

Right at the end of the thing where the huge build just goes into nothingness, in my current project I have 12 blank bars that are taunting me. (I'll get even and attack them with notes here in a bit)

I'm not happy with the bass part as is, I originally liked that real throaty bass, but it's just playing quarters and my other bass is playing off beats. A bit simple for me, and is just not cutting it. Thanks for dissecting the key for me, I'm hoping I can make somefig out of it.

:-POnce again, thanks for all the comments and criticisms

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Actually, Hoboka, I don't hear that much 'dissonance' in this... Point out where; I'd like to hear what your talking about. Are you sure it's not the scale integrated in the music?

Gario that's a little dissapointing that you can't hear the dissonance here, I thought you're a pretty decent composer dood. Moreover, you're not doing Hewo a favor here by telling him his mix isn't off key when it is. Go ask any J or any other remixer...THOUGH I WISH THEY WOULD COMMENT ON THIS THEMSELVES

*glares at the hundreds of people who frequent this forum*

...anyways Gario, I'm telling you this because I used to lie and sugarcoat stuff for other remixers, until that is, Skrypanyk and Tensei San stomped on me. And rightfully so. Sorry If I sound like a pretentious fucktard...

Oh by the way Hewo, Lower Norfair is mainly on the key of C. Rather, C Minor I would assume...it sounds pretty minor-ish to me...unless its an inverted thingy. I'm no pro with chord names and such, but I do know the key is C because I messed around with the melody a bit and discerned it as such.

EDIT

Oh and sorry Gario, I didn't mention WHERE the dissonance is. Well, the first 30 seconds seem fine, but the melody, rhythm and chords seem to all clash afterward. That popcorn/square synth seems to be the biggest problem here.

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Okay, I did some with this, no update here yet. That 'popcorn' synth was a real bassy sound, right? It was written in a minor chord (well, mostly) and I simplified it when I re-wrote the bass part earlier. The lead is played on acid bass through z3ta, and is written in a 5th paralell. I did take the upper off, but it sounded very thin. I did put a 'octive' in, but there was too much space. I think the main lead works okay as is. The chords that you hear in the breaks are half steps off, and that's right from the source, and have that minor sound, same as the step downs in the middle.

As far as J's posting on here... It kills the peer review side of things, because the judges opinions are considered right. I mean. DJP has a post here in the WIP forums I was looking at. Boss man came in and has the last post in the thread, no one posted after that. (though a lot of the theads die anyways it seems) I think J's opinions intimidate people. (I know I read the judge forum and try to pay attention to some of the critisisms there) I look at all the feedback I get, good or bad. I have to say it helps more if there's not sugar, but some people don't take criticism well. Sometimes people say less is more, but with my criticisms, more is more. I personally try to put what I'm saying into clear, moderatly punctuated sentances what says when the time I'm talking about is. And even then I'm wrong a lot :-P

The key of C has no flats or sharps. So it sounds very blah if you don't vary from it. I know this is written in some sort of ancient 'lost' key signature, but it is supposed to have a certain amount of minor feel to it. I'm sure it's a tipple word score key signature what has hyphens and stuff in it that I just haven't heard of yet.:puppyeyes:

That is all, now get along again, goddammit:-P

-H

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