Some basic hardware/setup questions

[ichrius]

So a friend stumbled into some money and asked me to help him build a little setup. My setup right now is basically a Guitar-> Tascam US144 MKII USB interface -> Laptop(cubase, amplitube etc). But with more money I'm not quite sure of what next.

What I'm thinking for a basis is Mic/Keyboard/Guitar -> xxxxxx -> PC. Maybe the USB interface isn't the way to go here, as it's 24bit(I'm still learning about the bit) but I'm looking for any ideas or suggestions. There is an old mixer/processor he has too, which I assume the instruments could plug in that, then go from that into xxxxxx into the PC. I'm also building a new PC for it - so maybe I'd need a certain sound card?

Thanks for any advice and your time:) I will continue researching elsewhere, but this of course would be the first place I come for advice.

[Fishy]

24-bit doesn't make much difference to your CPU, only to your hard drive space (takes up more room). Go with firewire instead of usb, much better for real time stuff like recording. I don't have one but hopefully someone with a decent one can chime in..... now:

[ichrius]

Might as well add this on there: 24-64bit isn't sound quality? And XP vs Windows 7 vs Mac? Cubase, Reason, Fruity Loops, Guitar Rig/pograms mainly, but like to keep an open mind about future products.

[Fishy]

when people say 16-bit and 24-bit, they refer to bit-depth. This basically just decides how many possible different values you can have of a digital sample. The more values you can have, the more likely you are to be closer to the actual analogue 'value' you are recording. 24 bit takes up 8 more bits of storage space, but calculating the sample is not any more or less cpu intensive. Technically speaking I suppose you could say a higher bit-depth is 'higher quality' but 16-bit is already CD quality. There is little to no point in going higher then 16-bit. Most people record higher but when you burn to CD everything goes back to 16-bit so ya... not much point. If you have the hard drive space then why not I suppose.

When people talk about 32 or 64 bit, they are referring to your operating system architecture. In short 64 bit allows you to use more RAM, but not all programs and plugins work with a 64-bit architecture yet. 32 is safe. There are other differences obviously but if you plan on going 64-bit, make sure everything you want to use works. Check the specs.

If you want to use Fruity Loops you have to go with windows, there is no mac version.

[Kanthos]

There's a pretty cheap way to get 32-bit plugins working on a 64-bit architecture called jBridge (maybe $20? Can't remember for sure), but even it isn't guaranteed to work. For that matter, some plugins just don't play well with some hosts, so no matter what you do, you might have incompatibilities. Also, some 64-bit hosts have similar technology to jBridge integrated already; Sonar does, for one.

[AMT]

REAPER does too and it's fantastic.

[Nabeel Ansari]

OMG IT'S NOT FRUITY LOOPS IT'S FL STUDIO

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But yes, FL Studio is Windows only, and if you/your friend is more interested in electronic music over recording, FL Studio is a very nice production suite choice.

One of the reasons being note entry by mouse is superior to other DAW's I've tried like Reason, Cubase, Garageband, Studio One, and REAPER. It's simpler, left click to write and right click to delete. And it's not like right click brings a menu to delete, it actually DELETES right from the click. This means you can just hold it down and fly over every note to delete it. This makes note entry/editing/deletion a breeze. That alone makes it a nicer workflow setup for all kinds of music. The only thing it lacks in is nice recording, but even now, that's being improved on very nicely.

[LuIzA]

if you think you may switch OSs eventually, you probably want to pick a DAW that's available for both Mac and Windows (ie Cubase, Reason), so you don't have a learning curve when you do the switch.

As far as an audio interface goes, you'll probably want one with MIDI (in case you have older keyboards), Hi-Z inputs (for guitar) and as many inputs you think you'll need. Fishy mentioned FireWire is better, but I've never used anything FireWire, all I can say is that USB isn't bad at all. With ASIO drivers, you can get really low latency and whatever you do DO NOOOOOOOOT get the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra, it's utter !@#$.

[prophetik music]

on a mac, firewire's pretty good, and usb is pretty good. on a pc, firewire sucks ASS compared to USB. there's little difference in usable bandwidth - that is, firewire 400 and USB 2.0 are relatively the same, and it's hard to max out a USB 2.0 interface's cable bandwidth unless you're trying pretty hard, given that most computers will hit a wall internally before the cable's the issue. meanwhile, firewire has tons of issues, like no hotplugging, terrible support in general, and crappy drivers that often require reverting to XP's drivers in more modern OSes. if your interface is fully supported, however (like focusrite's interfaces, which i use), then the biggest issue is making sure you turn your interface off and let it fully power down before unplugging or plugging it in somewhere, so you don't blow out your southbridge.

the myth behind firewire being a zillion times better for interfaces is directly traceable to Mac homerism and people assuming without knowing anything that the Mac is better for audio because something inherent about it is better than a windows-based machine. this is crap, and generally relates to the fact that Macs use better hardware initially (and cost like five times more) than the equivalent PC...therefore making your 2500$ Mac more reliable than my 500$ PC. it doesn't help that audio engineers are generally mystics and charlatans when it comes to their equipment (more tubes makes it sound warmer, man), and are willing to pay top dollar for a few percent increase of whatever numeric they're using currently to determine awesomeness in a desktop or recording rig.

so, tl;dr version is that USB is in general better, but firewire when supported isn't a bad option. and Macs are expensive because people are dumb enough to pay it.

[Nabeel Ansari]

I can personally vouch for Audio Kontrol 1, it's an excellent small USB 2.0 interface with XLR, 1/4 in., and MIDI in/out. It's perfect for the single studio man, but if you need more connectors at the same time, I wouldn't suggest it.

However if you don't, Audio Kontrol 1 also comes with lots of free software (Cubase LE, Kore Player, Traktor LE, Guitar Rig 3 LE)

Also, it comes with a free $200 product of your choice from the following:

Native Instruments MASSIVE

Native Instruments FM8

Native Instruments Absynth

Native Instruments Guitar Rig 4 Pro

If you're more interested in recording guitars than synthesizers, I strongly recommend redeeming Guitar Rig 4 Pro as your free product.

Like I said, this is what I use, so I can recommend it.

[suzumebachi]

if you think you may switch OSs eventually, you probably want to pick a DAW that's available for both Mac and Windows (ie Cubase, Reason), so you don't have a learning curve when you do the switch.

As far as an audio interface goes, you'll probably want one with MIDI (in case you have older keyboards), Hi-Z inputs (for guitar) and as many inputs you think you'll need. Fishy mentioned FireWire is better, but I've never used anything FireWire, all I can say is that USB isn't bad at all. With ASIO drivers, you can get really low latency and whatever you do DO NOOOOOOOOT get the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra, it's utter !@#$.

I was actually just thinking about getting an M-Audio Fast Track Ultra. What's wrong with it?

Anyway this thread is relevant to interests. My Focusrite Saffire LE died and I need a replacement.

I'm leaning towards a USB interface but not for any of the reasons Brad mentioned. Firewire is fine. Just as good as USB 2.0 for audio. The problem with USB audio interfaces is most of them are USB 1.1 which does not hold a candle to Firewire and they often neglect to tell you they're USB 1.1 unless you dig through all the technical specifications. There are USB 2.0 interfaces but they're actually not that common (and when they ARE 2.0 it's usually a big selling point in great big bold text). USB also has data collision issues that Firewire doesn't have, though this isn't a problem if your only other USB device is a mouse. Also, bad drivers aren't Firewire's fault, they're the manufacturer's. And I don't know what you're talking about with the hotplugging.

tl;dr both Firewire and USB 2.0 are fine

The reason I'm leaning toward USB is because the cheap ass little 4-pin miniature Firewire port fucking Sony built into my laptop is a flaming piece of shit and if you even BLOW ON IT let alone BUMP IT it will often cut out which is REALLY REALLY BAD WHEN IT HAPPENS IN THE MIDDLE OF A SHOW WHY COULDN'T THEY PUT A REGULAR SIZE FUCKING FIREWIRE JACK ON THERE WHAT THE FUCK IT'S NO BIGGER THAN A FUCKING USB PORT AND THEY HAVE NO PROBLEM PUTTING FUCKING USB PORTS ON THERE BUT NOT REGULAR FUCKING FIREWIRE WHAT THE FUCK SONY WHAT IS THIS I DONT EVEN so a USB audio interface it is.

[Kanthos]

I can personally vouch for Audio Kontrol 1, it's an excellent small USB 2.0 interface with XLR, 1/4 in., and MIDI in/out. It's perfect for the single studio man, but if you need more connectors at the same time, I wouldn't suggest it.

I also vouch for the Audio Kontrol 1. Plus, NI's just put it on sale; I think it's going for $230 now, same price as buying one of their synths directly from them.

[prophetik music]

actually, suzu, almost no interfaces manufactured in the last five years are USB1.1. so no worries there.

hotplugging: if you plug or unplug a firewire device that's turned on (with an external power supply), you can fry your entire southbridge. says so in big boldy letters right on the front of my manual. not to mention a friend of mine did that a while back and torched half his motherboard.

[suzumebachi]

I dunno, a lot of the audio interfaces I've been looking at in my search for a replacement have been USB 1.1. Also, I never had any problems hotplugging my Saffire LE, but it's bus powered (though it does also have the option to run off an external DC adapter).

Also, I would just like to say that Focusrite's drivers are absolutely tops, at least for the Saffire line. Seriously, they have the driver thing NAILED. Saffire drivers for Vista x64 are literally 1.5 mb and perfectly stable. I would probably have gotten another Saffire LE but sadly they discontinued it, and the newer Saffire models fall a little short of its greatness.

It's a little weird to be praising an audio interface that up and died on me, but what can I say, it was GREAT while it lasted.

Anyway, still waiting to hear from LuIzA about why I shouldn't get a Fast Track Ultra. :3

still lookin for a new AI

damn meds

starting to ramble

i better hit the submit reply button before this post gets 3 pages long

[ichrius]

Hijacking my threat back, here's a list of what I should be getting:

Cubase 5

Reason 5

GR4/Amplitube

Saffire Pro 40 AI

KRK VXT 8 monitor speakers

Korg M50 keyboard

And of course a PC. (i7, 8gb ram, 1TB HD and 1TB external, Win7)

Should be making a purchase within a week, as I'm trying different places for the lowest cost. The thing I was most iffy with was Reason, I hadn't used it much before but this is also a 1 time deal, as I don't know when I'd have the money again so I'm trying not to miss anything.

Any words to make me feel better about my purchases are much welcome:P I think the PC is a bit overkill, I wish I could find something cheaper. Made from pudgetcomputers.com

Thanks again all, you helped me more than you know!

[Arcana]

I would wonder why you need both Cubase and Reason... it depends on what you want to do (and what kind of music you want to do), you might want to get other software instruments instead of Reason (eg: NI Komplete, Spectrasonics Omnisphere, etc) that integrate better with Cubase.

Just something to keep in mind

[Kanthos]

Don't get an M50 unless you're wanting to use it for live performance as well. Get a cheaper MIDI controller and Native Instruments' Komplete; you'll get better sounds out of that, with some time spent learning to program a synth if you don't already know, than you'll get out of an M50, plus you won't have bought a keyboard that has decent sounds but is really cheaply made for what it costs. And unless you have a really good reason to want to record a keyboard, you'll probably have an easier time of it with everything done in software, using your keyboard only for controlling things.

[ichrius]

Well the M50 my friend was mostly set on, ever since drooling over the Korg Triton and dreaming for years.. keeping the MIDI out in mind too, of course. I have guitars and mics (and wanting the keyboard) for recording. I was just thinking of Reason for things like drum and bass, but would also like to play with a number of different sounds over top my recordings.

I know Reason doesn't have the VST support, but there just seems to be such a vast number of options in Reason.. while using Cubase for recording. Just seemed difficult to me to find VSTs that would match Reason's bulk of sounds.

[Kanthos]

Seriously, look into NI Komplete. I don't know if it has absolutely *everything* Reason does, but then again, I doubt Reason has absolutely everything Komplete does. It'll be much easier to integrate VSTs than Reason, much more memory efficient, better on CPU usage, etc.

If money's not an object, get a Korg M3 over the M50, or try to pick up a second-hand Triton Extreme or TR (I wouldn't go back any farther than that, except *maybe* the Triton LE, since it'll be harder to back up your presets - a classic Triton, and, I think, Triton Studio, do that on a 3.5" floppy disk - not technology you want to be using).

Here's a brief overview of Korg's workstation keyboard models, and I'd agree that if you're getting only one keyboard and will use a computer for more acoustic instruments anyway, that Korg's the manufacturer to go with.

The Triton Extreme is the last keyboard in the Triton line. It's a full-blown workstation with touch screen, aftertouch (lets you make changes to pitch or other properties of a sound based on the pressure you put on the keys after the initial keydown), sequencer, sampling, the works. Sometime before the Triton Extreme, Korg put out a scaled-down version of their Triton line, the Triton LE. It doesn't have the touchscreen or built-in sampler (you can get that as an expansion), has fewer on-board sounds than the Triton Extreme, only lets you use at most 3 effects at once, compared to the Triton Extreme's 8, and has half the polyphony (number of notes you can play at a time - each individual sound you use takes up one count of polyphony, so playing a C with four sounds at the same time means you're using 4, not 1).

After the Triton Extreme, they released the TR, which I have - it's the Triton LE with the extra sounds of the Triton Extreme, but still no touch-screen or sampler and reduced polyphony.

Then, they started with a new synthesis engine and released the M3, which is, effectively, the successor to the Triton Extreme. Most people find it to be a bit more sterile and clean, suited a bit more for recording than for live performance unless you do some heavy tweaking. It's got a bit higher polyphony than the Triton Extreme though; if I had the money for a different workstation, I'd be choosing between this and a Yamaha Motif XS or XF.

The M50 is a scaled-down version of the M3. It is better than the Triton LE and TR in that it has the newer sound engine, a bit higher polyphony, and lets you use 8 effects at once, like the Extreme and M3. It is worse in that it doesn't have aftertouch, is really cheaply built (I wanted an M50 until I saw it in store; I'd never gig with something so cheap, hence my TR), and has no sampling (not that you'd probably care about sampling anyway).

I would advise against the M50 and instead either look at the M3 or one of the Triton-generation Korgs.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Any words to make me feel better about my purchases are much welcome:P I think the PC is a bit overkill, I wish I could find something cheaper. Made from pudgetcomputers.com

Usually websites that build custom PC's for you overcharge a bit.

I checked about pudget's $3400 computer, and you can definitely get similar parts for very little more than half of that price.

I recommend talking to prophetik about getting a custom PC, he won't give you "OMG THIS IS BS" prices.

if you want drum and bass get FL Studio

[Moseph]

I checked about pudget's $3400 computer, and you can definitely get similar parts for very little more than half of that price.

I built an i7-860 with 8 GB RAM and a 1 TB drive (but no external drive) (EDIT: also w/o monitor) for just over $900. If they want $3400 for that, they're ripping you off.

[ichrius]

Looking at newegg's prebuilt PCs alone they seem to range from 1000-1500 compared to 2000+ for same specs. Phoo does it pay to research!

[Nabeel Ansari]

Looking at newegg's prebuilt PCs alone they seem to range from 1000-1500 compared to 2000+ for same specs. Phoo does it pay to research!

The real deal is in buying the parts separately, and i say that because I'm assuming you're talking about those PC's that are being sold by CyberPower and the like.

[ichrius]

The one I was looking at specifically was

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883147177

Of course anything looks good to me, Cubase seemed to work pretty decently on my 2g ram and standard processor, so I couldn't imagine how smoothly things would run on that. I suppose I'll have to check out individual parts too though.

[Moseph]

Honestly, for RAM, unless you're doing really hardcore stuff like loading large sample libraries for a full orchestra, 4 GB is probably enough. You could probably also get away with an i5 instead of an i7 if you're trying to really cut the price.