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djpretzel

*NO* Arkanoid 'SID No More'

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Hi.

Makke here with a new C64 remix, namely: Arkanoid (SID No More)

Hope you'll enjoy it. A few people thought I destroyed both Epic by Faith No More and Arkanoid in one go, which indeed must be unique. But most people liked it, so I hope you will too.

Cheers,

Makke

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this is really enjoyable. it sounds clear and polished. the arrangement isnt amazing, but for what it is, it's well-done. two relatively large problems i have are that the bass isnt loud enough and the click thing in the left channel is too loud.

i'm gonna give it a yes if we get these things fixed. for now i'll see if people agree with me.

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I say this is good, and I expect we're gonna have more vocal mixes in the future, the number of them is certainly increasing...

Edit: Whoops, I'm retracting my vote in light of what has been posted below...

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http://www.lemon64.com/music/sid/Galway_Martin/Arkanoid.sid - Subtune 1/20

I was also having some problems hearing the source for most of this, but I checked things out. Definitely deserves closer scrutiny. Most of the support bassline Marcus used started at about 2.5 seconds into the source tune as percussion, but it's really, really obscured in the source. I agree with Vig in that the bassline could have been louder during some of the fuller parts of the chorus, but during the verses it was at a good level. Cool rearrangement for that area by adding your own stuff to it.

The chirping effects in the left channel are usually in the pattern of the source tune's usage (:02-:07 of the SID). For example, Makke uses that pattern from :02-:10 of the mix. Times like :13-:33, during all of the verses, feature original patterns before returning to the source's pattern during each chorus (:33-:43, :53-1:14, etc.) The SID work being placed ~99% in the left channel didn't bother me at all.

From 1:47-2:28 on when the guitar, SID work & bassline are all easily recognizable from the source tune, and was definitely the arrangement level I wanted. Glassy ending entering at 2:18 is from 1:14 of the source tune with a tiny bit of embellishment that you hear at 2:27 when it's playing without the music.

Rather than using the support stuff from the source, I felt there had to be a way to integrate something more overtly melodic from the Arkanoid tune amidst the Faith No More homage from the first 1:46 (more like how the last portion of the mix was actually done), but I heard what what being used from the source for this area and it was adequate. Fairly good weaving of Arkanoid & Faith No More's "Epic" though. I wanted more of the Arkanoid melody involved simply in terms of how I see the guidelines here, but in my opinion this barely passes on that level. All other things considered, the production was solid, and (independent of my judgement) I definitely enjoyed this one.

YES

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Mmmmm. Interesting. I was almost going to reject this outright, not on quality but standards issues.

To me, this is.... a remix of Faith No More's 'Epic'... that has a very small bit of Arkanoid thrown in.

Has everyone HEARD Epic by Faith No More? Larry indicates he has, but still approves the mix...

I'd have a hard time setting a precedent saying someone can remake, say... any pop tune from the 80's or 90's, thrown in a bit of game music, and call it a ReMix. I respect the artist and the end result, but honestly didn't think anyone would pass it, based on the source material...

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* Digital_Fag is playing Faith No More - Epic

k

* Digital_Fag is playing Makke - Arkanoid SID No More OC ReMix

This isn't an Arkanoid rearrangement. Epic isn't "weaved" into this mix, Epic IS this mix.

NO

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Let me echo Binnie's assessment; Makke's amazingly talented. I'm waiting in anticipation, however, for the day he sends something that truly jives with our standards, in which case I'm almost 100% sure it will be posted.

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<[makke]> I won't get mad if you reject it or anything

<Liontamer> That's good to hear, honestly; we've had people be touchy on things like this

<[makke]> I just feel that dismissing it as "too much faith no more" is a so-so argument, as it's just as much Arkanoid as Faith No More

<[makke]> I guess the Faith No More stuff is just more obvious to the naked ear

<Liontamer> I wanna hear your side; lemme paste you my vote

<Liontamer> Yeah, I think if you take the vocals away, the arrangement of Arkanoid is more obvious

* Liontamer vote [edited out]

<[makke]> Wow, you spent some time analysing it :) which is probably what it needs if you're not to dismiss it as "just faith no more"

<Liontamer> Absolutely; critical votes like these are serious business :-P

<[makke]> to be honest, I think my SID No More remix is one of the most intelligent remixes I've ever heard, if I may say so myself. Yes, there's a lot of Faith No More in there, but only because it works well with the original SID and makes a perfect mosh-up of the two tunes. the original SID is in there all the way, and it's all chopped up and rearranged to fit the flow better. the two tunes mix together so well that if you don't know both the tracks by heart, it's hard to really see it

<[makke]> the thing that might throw people off is probably the fact that the lyrics are the easiest thing to pick up on, and those are re-written Epic lyrics...thus, the thing people will hear and remember are the lyrics, and they're _quite_ Faith No More

<[makke]> while if you look at the over all arrangement, it's basically 50-50 Arkanoid vs. Epic

<[makke]> it's your call, but I do feel that some of the intellectual properties of the remix are being missed out on due to ignorance. anyway, bottom line...I won't get mad if it's rejected, which I guess is what you wanted to hear ;)

<[makke]> you can feel free to tell the rest of the judges all of the above. [underline added] anyone is welcome to disagree as long as they can make a good argument and don't just go "Too much Faith No More", because if you look at it it's quite balanced. I won't get pissed off or anything if the tune is rejected. just don't let it be for the wrong reasons.

I feel that so far, my vote is the only one that attempted to justify their decision enough. I feel it's ok to do whatever we will with this mix, but that the votes here deserve more substance. Makke won't take a potential rejection badly as long as the reasons have some meat to them, so I ask that at least some of these votes be revisited and given a bit more. I feel it's fair and worthwhile to the submitter to provide that and it demonstrates that we actually paid close attention when we assessed the submission. DJP agrees and will likely expand on his comments.

In any case, Marcus provided me with an instrumental copy of SID No More, and I feel it'll better help everyone to clarify the reasoning of their votes & the observed level of Arkanoid arrangement.

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Judging mixes like these are always tricky since the original material is so sparse compositionally. I honestly don't know how one could even mix that to begin with. I felt the source was mostly just a groove based piece.

The Faith No More material to me is the most obvious and for me the mix is clearly weighted towards Faith No More rather than Arkanoid. As stated considering the source material, perhaps this was a natural execution on how the mix came together. But regardless, to me, the point still is I felt this was more of a Faith No More slanted mix with some Arkanoid work underneath it.

I frankly don't hear much arrangement here that is consistent with the requirements of this site. Most of the more liberal arrangement I hear in this is the natural evolution of blending two different pieces of music together. But without the FNM source material I think this would have been much more exposed as lacking in the arrangement department. But on the other hand, given the Arkanoid source material - it's hard to see how this could have been arranged to the standards we have come to expect.

Now for the sake of arguement - let's take out my personal judgement above and assume the opposite end of the arguement mentioned by Makke of 50/50 of Arkanoid vs FNM is true; then this alone makes the reliance on non-video game music material too much in my opinion. This isn't a hybrid arrangement site.

Very good mix, and greatly produced but the violation is clear for me. NO

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Whether Epic is 50% or 10% or 100% of this mix, it is a commercial song and that makes this submission a clear violation, end of story.

Edit: these are not specific ratios of acceptable commercial references, just a line to make a point

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Whether Epic is 50% or 10% or 100% of this mix, it is a commercial song and that makes this submission a clear violation, end of story.

We just pointed out that Batman "Gotham Symphony" wasn't a violation even though it had some references to the Batman movie score. You can't just say "commercial song references = violation". Otherwise, remove injury's SMB "8-Bit Eighties" and the OneUp Mushrooms' SMW "Super Mario's Sleigh Ride" as commercial reference violations. Makke's last posted mix, Lost Patrol "In the Air Mix" wasn't a violation as the music/arrangement was from the Lost Patrol source tune, even though the lyrics on top were in the style of Phil Collins' "In the Air Tonight".

While the arrangement of SID No More also includes musical references to "Epic", Makke feels that there's enough Arkanoid arrangement as well. Again, for the mixer's benefit and at his direct request, not mine, elaborate your vote on how you believe the mix doesn't arrange Arkanoid enough, like Gray did. Even though I don't like Ari's incomplete-looking vote, he verified to us that he knows both source tunes and had them both in mind, so his vote counts. I'm hoping Vig has time to look at his vote as well.

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Wrong. This submission is substantially of a contemporary known commercial song. The other mixes you mention are not analogous examples. This one is a violation of our standards through and through; there is nothing else left to be said about my vote (though I can mention it's otherwise a good song and Makke's mixes on the site rule). You're asking ME to justify MY vote when you gave a YES to a would-be NO OVERRIDE.

Even though I don't like Ari's incomplete-looking vote, he verified to us that he knows both source tunes and had them both in mind, so his vote counts.

I asked Ari to confirm if he actually verified such a thing, and after hearing from him he absolutely did NOT, he has this to say:

Even though I don't like Ari's incomplete-looking vote, he verified to us that he knows both source tunes and had them both in mind, so his vote counts. I'm hoping Vig has time to look at his vote as well.

First things first. I don't know what epic is and never said as such. This is yet another example in the long endless list of examples of someone (who typically detests people speaking for others) speaking for me. Had I known that this was indeed an 'Epic' song I would certainly vote the binnie route. As usual I've been saying our standards are weak on this issue. Basically you're allowing anyone to minimal-remix a song just as an excuse to do their own sing, aka midnight. I said this would happen again and again, so here it is happening again. Btw, I recalling you calling my vote HORSESHIT, so using my vote to justify your point is not only unfair and deceptive, but rather WTF ROFL.

I'm not a judge any longer and never even got the chance to say goodbye. So its been fun. Good luck with the panel guys. I hope you take it in a direction that's practical and solid, and have less troubles as time goes on. And vote zircon yes damnit.

WITHDRAWN

Deleted his YES vote.

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Alright, not a problem. When I recalled criticizing Ari's glib YES vote in #judges, he insisted that he knew the source material involved, and I mistakenly remembered that as him confirming that he was familiar with the Arkanoid source along with Epic. Unlike Ari, I don't have a problem admitting I misrepresented what someone else said, and apologize.

Like I said earlier, I don't like glib votes when more needs to be said but will stick by them while hoping for more substance. But asking for more substance was Makke's request, not mine. And me quoting you, Binnie, was more to question how you'd apply your stance on using commercial material in a remix when you had a low figure such as your stated "10%" as a reason you'd advocate NO Override in general. We already have mixes like that OneUp SMW one and Emperor's Batman one that you could NO Override on those grounds, but I don't agree with that stance, and it looks like you're applying it to anything with direct commercial homage, no matter how LOW the percentage. Anyway, that kind of thing can be a Lockdown 2 issue if you want.

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We already have mixes like that OneUp SMW one and Emperor's Batman one that you could NO Override on those grounds, but I don't agree with that stance, and it looks like you're applying it to anything with direct commericial homage, no matter how LOW the percentage.

No, I was making a point that there is no need for me to list in specificity where Epic is in this mix and why it's a violation and why I should vote the way I did, because it's obvious and shouldn't have been sent to the panel anyway.

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While using Epic as an augmentation on the Arkanoid original is an awesome idea, and this song really does rock, I can't pass it.

He could use the beeps from pong in a remix of epic, and I still wouldn't pass it. The original happens to have a syncopated, heavy(ish) bassline, and it's a stretch to think that the "theme" of arkanoid is actually being weaved into the track.

The vocals are extremely well done, as is the entirety of the mix. It pains me to reject this tune, but OCR is simply not the place for this. Sorry dude. More in-depth reasoning above.

NO

-D

PS - I don't however, believe this to be an obvious NO OVERRIDE. This definately needed discussion.

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