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3 minutes ago, Garpocalypse said:

Since most metal mixing uses the rhythm guitars as the base of the mix in the first place, what exactly would you be accomplishing with a limiter?

If I do use it, it would be to keep the peaks controlled (yet not overcompressed). But if I feel like I have to use a limiter to solve any problems with guitar processing, I probably would go back to the amp sim (pre-limiter) and check the internal EQ there. If your frequency distribution is pretty even, then the waveform should look fairly even as well.

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Interesting track -> rough headphone mix

Sneap forum from 2009 talking about what is arguably In Flames' worst or best album.. YAWN... I'd trust Sneap himself just due to his amount of experience but not the goobs on that forum. NOT AFT

5 minutes ago, timaeus222 said:

If I do use it, it would be to keep the peaks controlled (yet not overcompressed). But if I feel like I have to use a limiter to solve any problems with guitar processing, I probably would go back to the amp sim (pre-limiter) and check the internal EQ there. If your frequency distribution is pretty even, then the waveform should look fairly even as well.

I know i'mma saturation nut but with the way i'm thinking about it this could be accomplished in a much less abrasive way with saturation.  A plugin like this gives you control over the saturation of upper vs lower freqs http://www.kvraudio.com/product/x_cita_by_elogoxa/details I use it quite often.  

I'm going to experiment myself with this but for some reason i'm completely averted to using compressors/limiters on high-gain guitars rhythm guitars. I've been around some indie-mixers in the past who swore by it and found that I couldn't listen to the mix for more than a few minutes without extreme ear fatigue even at low volumes.  

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Garpocalypse said:

I know i'mma saturation nut but with the way i'm thinking about it this could be accomplished in a much less abrasive way with saturation.  A plugin like this gives you control over the saturation of upper vs lower freqs http://www.kvraudio.com/product/x_cita_by_elogoxa/details I use it quite often.  

I'm going to experiment myself with this but for some reason i'm completely averted to using compressors/limiters on high-gain guitars rhythm guitars. I've been around some indie-mixers in the past who swore by it and found that I couldn't listen to the mix for more than a few minutes without extreme ear fatigue even at low volumes. 

Yeah, but how long ago was "the past"? No offense, but you may not have known for sure whether or not they were using a limiter or compressor properly. If it hurted your ears, it isn't necessarily true that using a limiter or compressor is harmful to the result, though it isn't necessarily true that they used limiters/compressors improperly either. What I'm thinking of is more subtle. For example, here's a recording AngelCityOutlaw made for 'Let's Upset a 'Troid!':

https://app.box.com/s/li4habfdpexpu83v9eogmo85ond38b8r - No compressor or limiter

https://app.box.com/s/mxgcaohx1qrnjj5etc35ihoc6j5e927m - With compressor (The Glue) to control peaks

They should sound very similar. But something did happen, and you can tell since their waveforms look like this---

Without compressor:

2md5de0.jpg

With compressor:

2093och.jpg

And this is helpful because it sounds very similar, yet it is overall more "even", so if you tend to have overcompression problems, this lessens those problems.

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It's also worth noting that there's endless possibilities when it comes to guitar tone and compressing or limiting won't be the right answer for all of them. You guys are using amp sims, and I'm guessing either 1 or both of you are using the Shreddage midi guitar library. While there are less possibilities with the library, mostly involving the engineering, mic placement, room sound, you still have the control over the amping. But then there's the issue of the amp sim, which in most cases will not give you as satisfying of a sound as you would get from reamping with a real amp. Both types of amp allow insane amounts of customization. I personally find amp sims a pain to work with, undependable, and inconsistent. I do work with them but I prefer not to. ;)

When I was saying I wanted to use a limiter on my heavy rhythms, I was talking about half-stack mic'd with an SM57 aimed near the center cup about an inch, maybe 2 inches away, depending on which guitar I'm using. Because oh, the pickups make a difference too. There are so many variables that any single answer won't be the right one for every situation. But that's what is so exciting about experimenting with different techniques. :-) Being able to engineer specifically towards that sound from the ground up can be a lot of fun. I know the Ibanez S7320 would sound great with a limiter on it just because after using it so many times and amping it in so many different ways, I almost have a good grasp of what I would get with a specific setup. 

Make sure you bounce out your amp-sim tracks before you really start putting effects on them. Get the tone/sound you like, then bounce it, and put it back into the session as a rendered track. Then start doing your editing. :-) At least with Guitar Rig I can always tell that it is changing my tone, or compressing it, or normalizing the volume, or doing SOMETHING I don't want it to do. So just to be safe, get it how you like it, save your preset or whatnot, and bounce. 

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Just to echo what Brandon said, yes there are so many factors that go into guitar tone that it's become a signature of sorts for individual guitarists.  which is why it can be so difficult to work with them and get them to understand that their guitar tone that they spent time and money perfecting NEEDS to be cut in a way that agrees with the rest of the mix.  Strings, String Tunings, Pick Gauges, Pickups, Mic Placement, Mic Type, Mic MANUFACTURER, and the guitarists picking technique all go into the resulting tone.

However, I was talking about post processing choices AFTER all of that was already decided. In many cases these choices have influences ENTIRE sub-genres of rock and metal and given that most metal-heads develop a sickeningly psychotic devotion to their favorite sound to suggest something outside of what they know they like could be grounds for starting a war.  :)Generally,  i find saturation to work better than directly compressing the resulting tone however as i've stated before i LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE high gain.  The higher the gain the better.  For a crunchier rhythm guitar i'm guessing that it may be a toss up as i would never use a saturator over a compressor for acoustic guitars.  

1 hour ago, Brandon Strader said:

 

When I was saying I wanted to use a limiter on my heavy rhythms, I was talking about half-stack mic'd with an SM57 aimed near the center cup about an inch, maybe 2 inches away,

 

   ONE SM57? If you're not using fredman mic'ing techniques you're doing it wrong. :P 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/432276-anybody-into-clayman-miking.html

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Sneap forum from 2009 talking about what is arguably In Flames' worst or best album.. YAWN... :)

I'd trust Sneap himself just due to his amount of experience but not the goobs on that forum. NOT AFTER WHAT HAPPENED LAST TIME. That forum gave me a good leg up when I got into OCR but that was about it. As for the technique they mentioned, nothing seems wrong with it, doesn't seem all that necessary though. You could mic the crisp and the 45 degree angle or whatever, separately, or just meet somewhere in the middle with 1 mic. Or just get the crispy cup sound. :P I like the control of using 1 mic instead of 9. To each their own though. The last time I used 2 SM57s was on older remixes so there's no real way to judge from those against my newer stuff which one was better. Maybe experience is more important than technique in regards to that, since my olderstuff is buttpoo ;)

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