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Master Mi

1. work-in-progress Lufia 2 - Tyrant Breaker (Master Mi Remix)

52 posts in this topic

Another video game music remix of the Sinistral Battle Theme (Battle #3) I'm currently working at.

It will take some further time for the finished version - but I think it's already pretty nice.


Original SNES Track
>>>


--------------------------------------------
Preview of my coming remix version
>>>


-----------------------------------------
Last version of my remix >>> 1.5
>>>


>>> https://clyp.it/gmmrf0zz

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This is very loud and overcompressed. The guitar sounds quite fake. Not much I can say other than try taking the limiter off, lowering the volumes of everything until it doesn't clip, raising the volumes until just before it clips, and put the limiter back on.

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It's not clipping - at least not as my mixer in my DAW is showing me - the loudest layer is still 10 dB below 0 at the highest volume within the whole track.

So I didn't need even a limiter.

I'm not sure where you hear clipping sounds in the track - maybe it' because I exported the track with my normal volume settings in mp3, reloaded it in my DAW again, turned up the volume (but again still below 0 in the mixer and without the limiter), exported it again and uploaded the on Youtube and soundcloud.

If this is not the problem it could be the drum layer maybe - it's nearly at the same volume level as the 2 different power chords and the percussions which play from the beginning till the end of the track.

Hm, not sure how high quality guitar vsts sound like - but I think those that I have are not bad ones (if you mean those around 3:20).

I use these electric guitars as a basis:

And in addition I use Vandal SE Virtual Guitar Amplifier:

I actually really like these ones - but maybe I have to change the settings a lil bit more to let it sound more realistic.

Thanks for the feedback, dude. =))

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It's not clipping - at least not as my mixer in my DAW is showing me - the loudest layer is still 10 dB below 0 at the highest volume within the whole track.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it's clipping right now; I'm saying it would be if there was no limiter. At times, the drums make the whole track pump (EX: 2:52), so if the limiter wasn't there, stuff would be over 0 dB.

Now, it's not like SoundCloud's waveform viewer is quite accurate, but looking at that, it seems louder than other songs. I don't really know what guitar VST you're using, but it's missing the sampled feel. With the bass being louder than the guitar, it covers up the frequencies that could have been occupied by the guitar chugs, and that also hinders the realism of the guitars. Lastly, the lead guitar seems like it has little diversity in articulations, as I can only hear the sustains (see 3:29); where's the vibrato, hammer-ons, pull-offs, staccato, tremolo, etc.?

Now I use this as my electric guitar standard (bass starts at 0:48, drums start at 1:18, guitars start at 2:16). Hope this helps. ;)

Edited by timaeus222

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Yep, the guitar sound at 3:29 is indeed totally stiff.

Want to change this soon after I have learned how to perform a bending or vibrato of notes in the midi editor since I don't have those options in my VST editors.

Do you know how the function in Midi Editors is called with which you can lift/bend (I guess it's not the pitch bending function) notes or use a vibrato on single notes?

I've just seen this in a guitar learning video - but I don't know how to do these variations in a DAW.

I would really post a pic of my midi editor functions from my Desktop, but I can only see a function in this text program to insert images from online sources.

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Yep, the guitar sound at 3:29 is indeed totally stiff.

Want to change this soon after I have learned how to perform a bending or vibrato of notes in the midi editor since I don't have those options in my VST editors.

Do you know how the function in Midi Editors is called with which you can lift/bend (I guess it's not the pitch bending function) notes or use a vibrato on single notes?

I've just seen this in a guitar learning video - but I don't know how to do these variations in a DAW.

I would really post a pic of my midi editor functions from my Desktop, but I can only see a function in this text program to insert images from online sources.

The portamento in many DAWs is just glided pitch shifting, but an actual pitch bend on a guitar is distinctly different from a manual pitch bend in that the tone of the guitar changes a little as the pitch rises since there are other strings surrounding it, but in a DAW portamento, it just glides the pitch without changing the tone. It's more obvious what I mean if you try it and bend the note really low.

It's almost the same idea with the vibrato; the tone changes a little, and the guitar's other strings react in what's called sympathetic resonance and contribute to altering the resultant tone of the currently played string, occasionally making it sound significantly different than just a DAW LFO vibrato, especially after adding an amp sim with distortion. Also, the DAW LFO would then have to be recorded manually to simulate the human timing, because no human bends a guitar string at a perfectly constant rate of oscillation or even a constant max amplitude of the pitch shift.

Edited by timaeus222

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So in other words I have to buy a VST with such functions right in the vst editor or - for the best effects - I have to learn to play a real electric guitar and record it at my DAW.

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So in other words I have to buy a VST with such functions right in the vst editor or - for the best effects - I have to learn to play a real electric guitar and record it at my DAW.

Pretty much. So far the only guitar sample library I would recommend is Shreddage II, which would require Kontakt 5. You could also post in the Recruit & Collaborate forums for a live guitarist if you want, and it would be cheaper.

Edited by timaeus222

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Or, what more beginners/hobbyists around here do, swap out the instrument entirely with one with similar properties.

You could even take a bad sample/soundfont and filter the hell out of it so that it sounds like an entirely different (electronic) instrument, but retains some of the "essential flavor" of the electric guitar. You just need to get out of the "uncanny valley" where your instrument sounds too fake to be authentic, and too real to be considered an electronic instrument.

Crystal is one of my favorite tools for this; it lets you use a soundfont as the base waveform for a synth, instead of a square/pulse/saw/sine/etc.

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Or, what more beginners/hobbyists around here do, swap out the instrument entirely with one with similar properties.

You could even take a bad sample/soundfont and filter the hell out of it so that it sounds like an entirely different (electronic) instrument, but retains some of the "essential flavor" of the electric guitar. You just need to get out of the "uncanny valley" where your instrument sounds too fake to be authentic, and too real to be considered an electronic instrument.

Crystal is one of my favorite tools for this; it lets you use a soundfont as the base waveform for a synth, instead of a square/pulse/saw/sine/etc.

In this case, though, at least to me, it seems like he's going for rock/metal. Unless he wants to change genres, traditional rock/metal does call for actual guitars.

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I've uploaded a new version of my remix at soundcloud - this time as a high quality wav. file and without boosting the volume after exporting the file.

https://soundcloud.com/master-mi/tyrant-breakerwav

In addition I've changed a few instrument settings.

Pretty nice to see that it sounds much more like in the exported file - no strange noises and even the cymbals sound totally clear now instead of the washed out sounding cymbals in the previous version (I'm not quite sure if it has something to do with the fact that I didn't rise the volume after exporting this time or rather with the delay effects of the percussions which I have put off this time - but I guess it's the first one that might be right).

My further plans with this remix:

- want try out some further instruments at the guitar part and try to get some variations, bendings and vibrato right within the notes in the midi editor to make this sound more catchy and rockstyle

- maybe I will double the remix and bring in some new instruments and variations in the second part - would totally fit with my ideas of the video I want to create for this remix - (hope the length of 10 minutes would not be a problem 'cause I've read somewhere in the remixing & submitting section that remixes shouldn't be much longer than 7 minutes)

If you have some ideas for improving my remix - just tell me.

Edited by Master Mi

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I think part of the fakeness of the guitar can be lessened by double-tracking it; have one instance panned hard left, and another instance of a distinctly different "recording take" (though in your case it's not a recording) panned hard right. Something you could try instead (since it's not a recording) is to just clone the VST and give it a slightly different guitar amp tone. Then, slightly offset the position of the notes backwards to add a "delay" to the playing and lessen the rigidity that is not present in actual double-tracking. That aside, to me the biggest indicator of fakeness is the lack of sympathetic resonance. Playing more than one note at once with this particular VST you're using sounds a little bit like an unending unison bend on an actual guitar; that's what I'm hearing.

Remember that WAV just takes what you had in your project file and combines it all together. Whatever you had in the project file is what comes out, and in this case, based on the partwriting and EQ, whether it's WAV or a 192 kbps MP3, it'll sound very similar, so you might as well render MP3's to save hard drive space. I almost always render WAV when I'm completely done with everything and ready to finalize.

The overcompression is gone. ;)

A few examples of sampled electric guitar just for reference:

https://soundcloud.com/isworks/shreddage-2-subterrenea-by-ian (has lots of mutes and staccato)

https://soundcloud.com/isworks/shreddage-2-wing-it-by-magnic (has a little bit of everything)

https://soundcloud.com/isworks/shreddage-2-corridors-of-time (has exposed lead guitar with plenty of articulations)

https://soundcloud.com/isworks/shreddage-2-nuclear-dubstep-by (has lots of mutes, staccato, and tapping)

Try listening closely to those and noting what makes the guitar realistic (though these are not actually live recordings). Things you could look for:

- Mutes --- Palm Mutes, Fast Mutes, Full Chokes, etc.

- Expression --- Vibrato, Pitch Bend (LFO-like), Portamento (up or down but not oscillating)

- Articulations --- Tapping, Pinch Harmonics, Hammer-Ons/Pull-Offs (slur/grace notes upwards vs. downwards), Sustains, Staccato

EDIT: No, you don't need a mix shorter than 7 minutes, but it's recommended. Unless you are really good at writing a remix that develops very well over the course of a long time without getting stagnant and maintains substantial source usage, below 7 minutes is recommended.

Edited by timaeus222

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Have some self-made presets for my guitar amplifier but I still can't get right into these sounds - maybe I have to try some other settings in there - or maybe I have to buy some guitar VSTs with higher quality like Ministry Of Rock.

For the guitar playing styles...

What do you think?

Do these obvious pros do those guitar effects just within the choice of notes in the midi editor or do they do it rather with the special functions like pitch bending etc.?

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Have some self-made presets for my guitar amplifier but I still can't get right into these sounds - maybe I have to try some other settings in there - or maybe I have to buy some guitar VSTs with higher quality like Ministry Of Rock.

For the guitar playing styles...

What do you think?

Do these obvious pros do those guitar effects just within the choice of notes in the midi editor or do they do it rather with the special functions like pitch bending etc.?

I'd suggest Shreddage 2 instead of Ministry of Rock. I've heard those two, and I honestly believe Impact Soundworks does guitars more realistically with Shreddage 2.

Pitch bending in Shreddage is with the pitch wheel. There's no "special sequencing". No "secrets" or w/e. People with high quality sample libraries aren't automatically "pros" either. :whatevaa: It's not completely about the samples you work with, it's how well you work with them. :|

Edited by timaeus222

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Yeah, so I guess I will save some Buckazoids for Shreddage 2 if I don't get any good results with my electric guitars and Vandals - but I'll try a lil bit before I give up with those.

Do you know ift Shreddage can be used as stand alone program if it doesn't work with my DAW?

Besides I've extracted the layer of the electric guitars in the end - it begins with a single high tone series and gets an additional bass line with a similar electric guitar setting after the first seconds leading into a long main part with a high tone series and a bass tone series of the same electric guitar, ending with an additional electric guitar the pops in with a slightly higher volume (which I will fix later, maybe).

https://soundcloud.com/master-mi/lufia-2-tyrant-breaker-e-guitar-testwav

(will delete this after a few days/weeks)

The beginning sounds pretty scratchy and awful high - but the following main part isn't too bad I think and has at least some glide effects cause of the minimal delay and hall reverb settings I guess.

How would you change this to make this sound better?

(I've also tried some acoustic & lead guitars instead of the electric guitar as a basis - but these totally peg up at the highest note in the beginning - unfortunately.)

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Shreddage is used with Kontakt 5, but Kontakt Player 5 is compatible, so you don't have to pay extra money to get the plugin that allows you to play it. Yes, it works as standalone; it just opens in Kontakt Player, not by itself.

For some reason the remix won't play for me. Maybe try uploading an MP3 instead?

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Yeah, but the problem is, that I don't own Kontakt 5 Player or Native Instruments. :D

(or is Kontakt 5 completely free without being just shareware and already contains some nice electric guitars?)

For the short guitar part... could be that you can't listen to it 'cause I've "just" uploaded the extracted electric guitar part.

Maybe in some hours it's possible.

Can you listen to the other versions at my Soundcloud profile - both, WAVs and MP3s?

https://soundcloud.com/master-mi

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Yeah, but the problem is, that I don't own Kontakt 5 Player or Native Instruments. :D

(or is Kontakt 5 completely free without being just shareware and already contains some nice electric guitars?)

For the short guitar part... could be that you can't listen to it 'cause I've "just" uploaded the extracted electric guitar part.

Maybe in some hours it's possible.

Can you listen to the other versions at my Soundcloud profile - both, WAVs and MP3s?

https://soundcloud.com/master-mi

Kontakt Player 5 is completely free, but Kontakt 5 is not. It also, IMO, does not come with super realistic guitars (they're OK, but not specialized).

Okay, the WAV one works now. So like mentioned earlier, the most tell-tale issue is the lack of sympathetic resonance; it sounds like partial unison bends every time you play more than one note at once.

Other things:

- The EQ in the low mids is boosted quite a bit, and it's also boosting the result of the reverb. Seems like the reverb may be in the amp sim, with the EQ placed after the amp sim in your DAW. I usually don't put an EQ after the reverb, but reverb after the EQ. After the reverb makes the instrument sit better in the mix, it may add more low end ambience depending on the Low Cut setting if you have one, and putting an EQ next in the signal chain boosts that ambience too.

- 1:28 - 1:41 gets really loud.

- Consider panning on the lead guitar to add more spaciousness and subtlety, and double-tracking the rhythm guitars (hard-pan left and right different takes). The whole thing sounds so narrow in the stereo field.

Edited by timaeus222

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I had installed Kontakt 5 and the free instrument library today but I couldn't do anything with it - and there seemed to be no possibility to put the instruments via vst in my DAW.

So I deleted Kontakt 5 and this stuff later on.

But I have uploaded another one of this critical part - but this time with an acoustic guitar of my DAW as a basis.

It fucks up that one single high not in the beginning - but the rest of the part sounds not really bad.

https://soundcloud.com/master-mi/tyrant-breaker-acoustic-guitar-testwav

Have an ear at it - tomorrow maybe. :DD

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I had installed Kontakt 5 and the free instrument library today but I couldn't do anything with it - and there seemed to be no possibility to put the instruments via vst in my DAW.

So I deleted Kontakt 5 and this stuff later on.

But I have uploaded another one of this critical part - but this time with an acoustic guitar of my DAW as a basis.

It fucks up that one single high not in the beginning - but the rest of the part sounds not really bad.

https://soundcloud.com/master-mi/tyrant-breaker-acoustic-guitar-testwav

Have an ear at it - tomorrow maybe. :DD

Why not? You just use it like any other VST. Just locate it in your plugin searcher, and open it in your VST wrapper.

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My DAW could'nt find (or implement) the dlls in the programm data, program files or document files of the Kontakt 5 or Native Instrument Stuff.

Besides Kontakt 5 Player ist just Demo-Content and is temporally limited per Session.

Even Indepence didn't seem to work although it's from the same Producers of my Software.

I've tested this out with Freeware-VST and most of them worked absolutely well, others completely not and some not quite right.

But I won't bother with that Demo & Freeware-Stuff too much and will rather save for Shreddage - it sounds absolutely amazing - just have listened to this amazing Chrono Trigger remix made with Shreddage.

https://soundcloud.com/isworks/shreddage-2-corridors-of-time

Meanwhile I will try to get a good sound with my vst guitars and other settings or I'll make some progress on my other 2 remixes I'm working at the moment.

One's a soothing remix with Piano, Drums that give a nice underwater feelin' and Pads that underline this atmosphere (it's called "Donkey Kong Country - Aquatic Anthem" - will upload a working title version of this soon) - so I don't have to bother with the guitars in this case. =))

Edited by Master Mi

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My DAW could'nt find (or implement) the dlls in the programm data, program files or document files of the Kontakt 5 or Native Instrument Stuff.

Besides Kontakt 5 Player ist just Demo-Content and is temporally limited per Session.

Even Indepence didn't seem to work although it's from the same Producers of my Software.

I've tested this out with Freeware-VST and most of them worked absolutely well, others completely not and some not quite right.

Yes, because not every library is programmed to work fully with Kontakt Player for free, usually just the full version of Kontakt. Shreddage is compatible with Kontakt Player 5, however.

But I won't bother with that Demo & Freeware-Stuff too much and will rather save for Shreddage - it sounds absolutely amazing - just have listened to this amazing Chrono Trigger remix made with Shreddage.

https://soundcloud.com/isworks/shreddage-2-corridors-of-time

Yeah, I'm sure I showed that to you earlier. =P Edited by timaeus222

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Yeah - of course you have shown me those amazing remixes with Shreddage/Shreddage 2 - I'm sure the Chrono Trigger Remix was one of those.

Besides do you have you listened to my other guitar at the critical part of my remix?

https://soundcloud.com/master-mi

What do you think would be the better choice?

My E-Guitar oder my Acoustic Guitar (exept the one high messed up note at the beginning? Which one sounds better?

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The acoustic guitar had less tendency to respond to the distortion with instability in the tone, so it gave you more control over what you could begin with.

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Yaaay, I 've got it & have solved the problem with the guitar, dude!

I had thought that the problem with the guitar sound has to do with the Release of my basic electric guitar or the Overdrive of my Vandal SE Guitar Amplifier.

But the real problem was the delay of the electric guitar - so just have cut the delay out and got a pretty nice clean rock guitar sound.

I guess that's what you mean with the distortion and the instability in tone.

Have an ear on this, man:

https://soundcloud.com/master-mi/lufia-2-tyrant-breaker-clean-e-guitar-without-delay-testwav

Guess I can go on with this amazin' shit without buying Shreddage (I'm still not sure if works as an vst plugin with my DAW - they say it only works with Kontakt/Kontakt Player).

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