[WIP] Phantasy Star 1 Dark Force

[Butoden]

Hello.

I made this in a couple of hours. I wanna hear some good criticism becuz right now I feel like I need help and I guess tips and stuff on how to make uhm.. a mix sound like a mix and not like a copy of the original. I went for a Dancey kind of tune. I try to keep it short so it doesn't have to get too complicated altho I am afraid that this might be TOO simple. Well take a look or give it an ear I guess and tell me what u think.

Phantasty Star 1 - Dark Force Remix (Dance Force)

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FNINPWXI

http://rapidshare.com/files/62067348/Butoden_-_Dance_Force.mp3.html

[Rozovian]

1:35, when the first thing I recognize comes in... I'll be blunt. It sounds terrible. It clashes with the rest of it. Either you need some music theory, or you need to set your samples to the right tone.

Otherwise, it's a decent tune. It's not too short, and it's not too long either, as many tend to be. And you've got an ending. Not all WIPs have one. The ending might be a little too long for some, tho, but I think that's just musical humor - I like it. Dancey and simple, while not musically impressive, is a nice way to start out. It's not too simple for my taste. It's just one horribly tuned instrument that puts me off.

So, improvements. Find something recognizable to fit in earlier in the mix. You've got some harmonics problems already at 0:55, I guess it's the same instrument that the theme is played with. So fix those parts, because they don't fit harmonically. If you know what I mean but don't know what to do about it, just move all notes on that track a seminote up or down, and keep doing that until it sounds better.

This kind of harmonic nightmare is very reminiscent of what I did when I started out with music... except the samples are higher quality. You'll learn. Just, listen and fix what you can, and post it here again. I want to hear how this _should_ sound.

[Butoden]

1:35, when the first thing I recognize comes in... I'll be blunt. It sounds terrible. It clashes with the rest of it. Either you need some music theory, or you need to set your samples to the right tone.

Otherwise, it's a decent tune. It's not too short, and it's not too long either, as many tend to be. And you've got an ending. Not all WIPs have one. The ending might be a little too long for some, tho, but I think that's just musical humor - I like it. Dancey and simple, while not musically impressive, is a nice way to start out. It's not too simple for my taste. It's just one horribly tuned instrument that puts me off.

So, improvements. Find something recognizable to fit in earlier in the mix. You've got some harmonics problems already at 0:55, I guess it's the same instrument that the theme is played with. So fix those parts, because they don't fit harmonically. If you know what I mean but don't know what to do about it, just move all notes on that track a seminote up or down, and keep doing that until it sounds better.

This kind of harmonic nightmare is very reminiscent of what I did when I started out with music... except the samples are higher quality. You'll learn. Just, listen and fix what you can, and post it here again. I want to hear how this _should_ sound.

Thats very good critics thanks for that. I tried to fix some problems with this update uhmm I chose instruments which uhm fit together bit more and uhm stand out less. And also I made the recognisable main tune start sooner and now it basically covers the entire track. I hope this is an improvement

http://rapidshare.com/files/62836136/Butoden_-_Dance_Force_C.mp3.html

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0TS8P3QD

[Rozovian]

This is interesting, you've taken my advice and managed to get rid of many of the things I liked about it and, I'm sorry to say, haven't improved as much as I had hoped. However, the way you've changed it shows promise, and I want to see where this remix can go.

There are notes clashing with each other because of the key they're in, different melodies playing in different key on top of each other, that's the clashing sound. I liked the old intro better, so use that, and throw in the theme a little earlier, like at 0:19, where another instrument - in the old version, comes in. In the old version, it got boring right about then.

There's a low-range pad in the background, which I think is responsible for some of the key problems. I'm not sure the solo instrument you've used is tuned right. I gotta say, I liked the instruments in the earlier version more, especially the crazy pad you used from the intro and on. I like the drum patterns you've used, but not the sounds themselves. I dunno if you sequenced those yourself of used a loop. At this stage, they're quite raw, but so's pretty much everythying.

You've fit the theme pretty much everywhere. It gets repetitive, annoyingly so. Find anyther piece of the source to play, play something original, or let the remix chill for a little. By the way, it's a pretty difficult theme to work with, because of the weird harmonics in the source, so I can understand some of the problems you've displayed.

Overall, it's a step back in terms of art, but a step forth in terms of ability. Keep at it. I'm here when you feel ready for the next feedback round. Also, I added you to my MSN list, we can talk details there.

[Inv1ctus]

Butoden your main problem with this song is how things mesh in all aspects.

First of all i definitely can recognize the clash between your chord usage and your melody. In other words, the notes are not correct. One way or another, you have to decide on a key, because right now it seems like arbitrary chromatic note usage.

Unfortunately a lot of chord studying might need to be taken into account for this mix to make theoretical sense. That doesnt mean its completely lost, it just means you need to carefully examine where and how you use notes.

Production-wise, the beat could come out a little more.

Keep it up, practice will only make you better

[Beoulve]

I must say that I kind of liked the first version better, especially the whimsical intro. It's a fun little tune you've got going here, but the fact that it's out of key hurts it horribly (and my ears too).

[Butoden]

Here is an update. I talked to Rozovian and he gave me alot of tips and helped me and uhm well here is an updated version of PS1's Dark Force remix by me so check it out.

http://rapidshare.com/files/66132529/Butoden_-_Dance_Force.mp3.html

[Rozovian]

I'm having a hard time figuring out whether or not the key problems are still present, or if the instruments themselves are responsible for the odd feel I get from this. Sometimes, it sounds like there's still stuff clashing, sometimes it sounds just overall odd - tho not in a bad way. Overall, I'm impressed, there's a lot of new stuff, in terms of texture and variation.

The drums are way better. They can still be improved, but they don't stand out as badly as they did before. They serve their purpose. The clap is a little too... much, in lack of other words. I can't say whether it should be shorter, more compressed, or just less loud. The drums in the background at 1:08-> are really cool. With laptop speakers, it's hard to determine how good they'd sound if they were louder, but at these levels, they're cool.

The break at 2:08 is a little too abrupt and a little too total, yet the noisy pad stays at the same level as before. I'd increase the cutoff, lower it by an octave, or use shorter notes with some release. Makes the break feel more like a break than a stop.

While there's not much build-up, I do like the big finish, before the long ending. I still think the ending's funny, and now the mix has a much better dynamic curve. There's still things to be tweaked and tweaks to be revised before it's submittable (imho), but it's not bad anymore. Hope you take this as a compliment. Good luck!

[Inv1ctus]

i like the new synths butoden, but it seems like ure big problem is still key usage. There are a lot of flat and sharp notes.

Are you familiar with how chords are built? I am assuming you may need to learn a few basics to help become informed on where and how note usage in chords is appropriate and inappropriate. Im not bashing you or anything, i can get a general feel of the theme and what your trying to do, there are just a few wrong notes holding you back. I would suggest looking at some online tutorials for reference (that ones not the best, sorry).

What would be a really quick fix at least for now though, is to just go through your song very slowly and meticulously, and compare it to the real song note for note. In fact if you can get them to the same tempo and play them simultaneously, that might be the way to go.

Good luck, good work, but definitely needs to be in key!

[Butoden]

Hello again

I have been working on this track in the last couple of days / weeks and I have changed alot of things, keeping all of your criticism in mind and well it has become alot different than the track I posted last time so I figured I'd give it another go and see what you all think. I am sure the difference is noticable and I hope it's better now than last time. Thanks again for your time and help

http://rapidshare.com/files/71144526/Butoden_-_Dance_Force_7.mp3.html

[Rozovian]

Well, it is an improvement. I'm missing the really cool sound you had in one of the earlier versions, but other than that, the sound samples are more artistic choices and a matter of personal preference than anything I can call bad.

And so, the break down: The beginning is the same as before, pretty much. A little too long, you could probably cut one round of the drums+bass there, go straight t the second where there's that other instrument coming in, real soft, in the background.

That other instrument, the really short notes, reminds me of some of my earliest works using trackers. It's not bad, but the second row of notes sound out of key. Try moving those and only those around, a semitone (one small step) up or down, see if it sounds better with the rest of it.

0:36, really cool pause, tho when the main theme comes in at 0:50, you could use a much softer instrument so you don't spoil the grandeur of the theme when it comes in at 1:06. Which, btw, needs more bass. Can you beef it up there?

1:54, okay, getting boring. By now, you should have changed the rhythm. 2:40, yeah this is closer to what I'm talking about, but rework the rest of the instruments to fit this new section. I like this one, but it's currently so in between old and new. Make it more new. Make everything fit the new rhythm... and make it build into it earlier.

And the ending... I still think it's funny. It's starting to feel a little too long, but it's still funny. Don't change it, at least not until you have to.

Good work, buddy! It still needs more, but you're getting there.

[Butoden]

Okay back once again, I think you were right on alot of things, I often find myself agreeing with you err yeah so here you can d/l it again with improvements (i guess) check it out.

http://rapidshare.com/files/71836953/Butoden_-_Dance_Force_X.mp3.html

[Rozovian]

All right...

First impressions of the new version: Something weird in the intro, it's weird but not bad.

00:43 - You've managed to find the key now. Nice job!

1:00 - Theme plays with double instruments, one a little later than the other. Really cool, but there's something a little off with them. The problematic source (in terms of key) doesn't make it easier. Here's a suggestion on how to fix this: use an echo/delay instead of another instrument, and/or let the other instrument play an octave below, no delay. See if that solves it.

1:15 and forth, you've got that weird pause in the lead instrument. It worked when you had that really weird and fat pad in the background, as the pad masked it. Without something like that, it just sounds choppy and... bad. I think it's funny, but it's hangs and falls by the execution, and in this case, it falls. As you have another instrument playing, although delayed, let the other instrument (without delay) play the full thing. With that, you might not even need the lead in this part of the remix.

1:29 - I think I figured out the problem. You've got some kind of detune or too much pitch modulation on the lead. Hearing the lead together with the cool bass you've got over at this part of the remix, I think I figured it out. Check the settings on the lead, if you can fix the tuning or modulation on it.

***other ppl***

Someone could give me a second opinion on this - am I right in saying the lead is the one causing all the problems with key and tuning?

Strange. Hearing the clap alone with the pad and a few other things made me like it much more despite hearing how much more attack it needs. Find something a little stronger, or tweak the settings for a quicker clap. We're talking milliseconds here, but a bunch of those cut from the start of the clap could make the clap sound so much better. Before this break in the remix, I thought the clap had too high sustain levels... it should end sooner, it should be shorter.

I like the slow fade-in sawlike sound just prior to the 2:32 section. That section, tho, needs more reworking. You've got a lot of stuff right, rhythmically. I think the first few notes of the lead just makes it unfitting. Rework those to fit in some other way, and I think this section works.

Although by now, I'm getting tired of hearing the same stuff over and over again. I know that's how it is, there wasn't that much source to work with (as far as I remember), but see if you can find some other order of sections, or let another instrument play the lead part... the melodic ticking, in lack of other words, that comes in pretty early in the remix, what if that would play the lead? I'm just tossing weird suggestions here, but see if you can vary this a little more.

The du-um...du-um...do-om...do-om... bass thing is disturbing here. It's killing the pacing. Use something else, or play something else with it. Something more fitting this rhythm.

Impressive sounds bridging into the ending. And the long ending is as amusing as always... Why not toss it in earlier as well? Use it to bridge some sections, the same notes backed with drums, maybe played twice as fast somewhere in the middle of it? Tho maybe not that long, if used in the middle of the remix... But whatever you do, keep this ending. Always makes me smile.

--

Man, this is the most impressive step-up you've taken with this so far. One small step for remixer, one giant leap for remix? Those key and tuning issues are getting in the way of me hearing if this has gotten closer to the "build-up-ing of the grande finale" that I mentioned before. Right now, that's not important. Fix the key and tuning, and the other things that need to be fixed, whether I spotted them or not, and post. Let's see how to build up towards a grande finale then.