Lotd2242

I thought it was blatantly obvious that the Joker mixed up the addresses when I saw the movie. Most of the "twists" in this movie were easy to spot way before they happened. I still wouldn't call it ironic though.

Though I know it's going to be a mountain of suck, Dragonball I get. After all, who doesn't want to see a live-action Kamehameha? But Bebop? There's just no point to it.

I didn't say I don't read comics. I won't read more comics. The Joker's portrayal has oscillated back and forth over the years between homicidal psychopath a la Ledger and goofy jackass a la Nicholoson. But fine if we don't want to compare to the comics, then I'd say Nicholoson's Joker is more fun. My favorite Joker of all is still Mark Hamill's version though.

No. (10char)

I think Nicholson did a better job of creating a comic book character. His Joker is more in tune with the sort of whackjob that runs around pulling crimes like they're pranks on the establishment. Ledger's Joker is just a regular genius psychopath. He plays a great one, no question there, but in terms of capturing the feel of the comic book Joker I don't think he comes nearly as close to it as Nicholson did.

Yeah, but as far as Dent knows, Batman chose to save him instead of Rachael, not that the Joker just flipped the addresses to mess with him, at least unless somebody tells him off-screen. I know. I just said I understood it. But it's still very roundabout logic compared to the immediate connection all of the events had to Batman, particularly when Gordon had said repeatedly that he knew about the corrupt cops and was doing the best he could with what he had.

Being shot didn't seem to affect him running off at the end. The latter part is true of course. But he didn't want the Bat to save his life. He wanted him to save Rachael's, which is why he's screaming the whole way out of the building that he should save her. He should be pissed that Batman saved him instead of Rachael. Also the whole situation only exists because of Batman. That is not to say I don't understand how he decided to target Gordon, it does make sense in its own roundabout way. I'm just saying that it's a weaker story choice regardless. I think it would've been much more powerful if Dent was trying to kill Batman considering he spent the whole movie defending Batman. Not to mention taking an innocent family hostage is several steps removed from whacking out corrupt mobsters or targeting a vigilante crimefighter.

That Dent was targeting Gordon and his family instead of Batman was pretty weak in its own right.

I may be wrong about the exact timing, but he gets out during that whole sequence of Dent being torched doesn't he? Absolutely they can. That's a couple of phone calls. Medivacs are supposed to be fast because if they're not, people die. The only real difficulty is making sure the receiving hospital will have adequate protection, and you can work on that during the flight out. I think the Joker had consistently proven that he was resourceful enough to deal with one man with a gun handily. He had just broken out of a police precinct after all.

What do you mean no apparent reason? First there's the fact that he's the highest-value target in Gotham. They'd get him out as soon as he was stable, if for no other reason than to keep the Joker from targeting the hospital (ironic, isn't it?) And if they were stupid enough to keep him there, which they were, as soon as the Joker called in the threat on the hospitals, he would've been the first one out. They would've put him in the nearest Medivac chopper and flown him out of the city before a single civilian got out the door. None of this leaving one inept guard to get killed nonsense. Edit: I also thought the joker was funny.

And within the framework they established, Dent would've been the first one out. Probably shipped off to Metropolis under the watchful gaze of Superman. That was my problem with the movie. So many convenient coincidences to get them out of a writing jam. When the Joker is on the screen, I didn't care because he was captivating in a psychotic way. The rest of the time...

If they had stayed consistent with the framework of the real-world they developed, it would've played out like this instead: Dent spends two to three months in the hospital undergoing painful reconstructive surgery, with nothing to do but sit and think about that moment and the horribly scarred man he has become until his mind just snaps. As he does he realizes that it's Batman who failed to help Rachael, Batman who the Joker was after, Batman who didn't reveal himself and end the madness. And with that he decides to declare war on Batman. Not only would that have made more sense, it would've been so much better of a character development. The man so willing to defend Batman that he would offer himself up as bait instead of forcing the real Batman to unmask does a complete 180 and begins a campaign to kill him, possibly even coming around to the Joker's side now that he's off the deep end.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the movie asks me to accept as a matter of suspension of disbelief that a burn victim with that severity of burns is out and about like Dent is. That means he's got something going for him, pure rage if you like, that is keeping him from spending the rest of the movie either A: unconscious or B: screaming in agony in a hospital bed. If that's the case, then that same thing should protect him from a mere what, two-story? fall, particularly if the protagonist, who as far as we are told is not wearing a helmet or padding, can land right next to him and get up and run off totally uninjured. I'm also saying that I find the idea of him surviving a fall like that more plausible in general than running around the city with half of his face burned off.

The fire would be enough for first to second degree burns by the time they got it off. But even if we concede that everything below the neck was golden, his face is burned down to the jawbone from cheek to joint. They'd have to put him out to keep him from dying of shock. That he can withstand the pain and run around chatting up dirty cops is a big enough stretch that I'd find the idea of a short fall not killing him to be more plausible.

Because then he couldn't walk around in a half suit of course. It would need to be an airbag or some kind of gel-pack, neither of which is mentioned when they're talking earlier about how the new suit is actually weaker for sacrificing weight for mobility. The blueprint designs were only on the screen for a moment and too small to see so it would be hard to tell either way, but when it comes out on DVD we can pause it and find out exactly what it is packing.

You're right it was not, now that I'm watching the clip of him in the bar. His hand looks clean. But Dent's response is also "half" when the guy says he thought he was dead. It would also make sense that his hand was out of the flammable liquid based on the position he's in when he falls over, and thus would not have suffered the same 3rd degree burns as the rest of him.

Yet his suit is burned half and half and it was also in the same pool of flammable liquid which caused his face to ignite. It is reasonable to conclude he was half-burned in keeping with the Two-Face motif. So you're saying Batman is hiding air-bags in his suit?

I don't know that he died. All I know is that they had a service for Harvey Dent. Batman survived the fall without a scratch. I mean, if a guy with burns on 50% of his body and a hole in the side of his face can be up and about playing vigilante and talking without so much as a lisp, I think he can survive a little drop.

My understanding was that the plan was to revolve the sequel around the newly created Two-Face.

Hehe Mark Hamil would be awesome. His Joker is great. Well I guess technically it's the combination of Mark Hamil and the writers of the Animated Series. I guess they didn't have enough time after Ledger died to do a quick re-shoot to make the Joker's part end with more finality.

The thing you found least believable about Dent was that he could refuse the pain meds? How about him even being conscious with the level of damage to his face? Or being able to articulate at all? Hell, even him being alive after that is a pretty big stretch. He would've been in a medically induced coma for the entire rest of the movie just to keep him alive.

I just assumed that would be Wonder Woman's job.

Yes that one. I had forgotten about the Joker's, but I have a hard time swallowing that just one has enough to cover the whole building and the ground around it, especially with such precision. At that point I was still trying to figure out spoilers: How a precinct full of cops, some of them no doubt corrupt cops, doesn't put two in the Joker's head when he tries to escape, or why they put a guy in the room with him at all in the first place.

I actually had no problem with the Batvision other than the fact it was working in an area with no phones. I really didn't feel thrown by the gadgetry. I thought the gadgetry was generally staying within the bounds of the real world environment they tried to create. It was the continuity of the characters, their motivations, and the world they're supposed to be in that were what I had issues with.

I'm fairly certain it was. The shoulder of it was charred like his face. Given the timeframe from hospital to stickup in the bar, it also makes the most sense. Actually the whole Harvey Dent part of the movie I thought was its greatest failing. It's also the biggest character departure. He got shafted like Ras Al Ghoul did.