djpretzel
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I think it's important to make a rating system optional. I would not like having every remix I post in the workshop to be subject to a rating. I often post early works in progress that aren't in ready to be rated, I'd feel less compelled to post incomplete work were it subject to a rating. Maybe that's just me, but I'd wager other people probably feel the same. I'm concerned that remixes from newcomers who have just started remixing would tend to receive lower ratings. I'm also concerned that people would be more likely to skip over remixes that have lower ratings.
If the rating system were to be optional, my concerns probably wouldn't be an issue.
Thanks for weighing in and making your opinion known! I really want this to be optional as well; how would you feel, though, about the implications being that the mix might not show up in some prominent places - for example, a list of trending/popular mixes - if ratings were disabled? Is this an acceptable compromise?
We need to encourage people to leave ratings enabled, because we'll want people to use the rating system as much as they're comfortable with, but at the same time we want to give artists like yourself a choice, for each mix... it's just that the choice might come with tradeoffs.
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Lol, wasn't aware of how loaded the vgmix topic is for you.
If neat integration of these features into the main site proves successful, i'm all for it.
I was thinking along the lines that if there's a second site, it should not be an ocr franchise thing. IF one decided to make something separate, it would definitely be better to give it its own identity.
If you can work the core features of vgmix into ocr without succumbing to chaos and bloat, then GREAT! Godspeed.
Not vgmix specifically - just the idea that another site is REQUIRED and that we can't make this work here.
When the smoke clears and we've got something running & automated, I actually expect it to REDUCE chaos and bloat in the long, long term. In the short-term, like I said, bumpy ride, but we're gonna need more than godspeeds - we're gonna need support, feedback, testing, patience, and optimism.
If you've got a list of specific suggestions, concerns, etc. regarding this entire notion, throw 'em at me here and we'll compile at some point. I'd like to talk this through a bit more with anyone willing.
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the idea with vgmix was that the people do QC via a rating system. i don't particularily like rating systems but it's the only way i know of to introduce user governed QC.
if you don't have that you'll just end up with another set of judges and a kind of B-site inside the main site, pretty much like OP suggested.
you could try to come up with a rating system as neutral and minimal as possible. maybe just a favorite option. or a "this needs more/less attention" rating to go with that. i dunno.
genre specific charts of some kind would probably help with ease of access.
All of this can be supported.
We know from experience that there are certain artists who HATE rating systems, so I'd PREFER to provide an option to disable it on a per-mix basis, with the understanding that those mixes might not show up on trending/popular lists as prominently.
It would make zero sense for the workshop to function as a microcosm of the main judges panel. A ratings system indeed makes sense, and like I said, I'd prefer to make it optional. A way of "liking" mixes WITHOUT rating them at all should ALSO be present. A way for artists to upload the mix but also embed a soundcloud or youtube preview would be supported. And of course, comments AND tagging (which handles genres to a certain extent) would be supported.
If you add integration with OCR's game, song, and composer database on TOP of that, well.... I honestly don't get where the need for a completely separate site comes into play. Granted, we don't have ANY of that yet, and right now it's just a forum - which actually works pretty well, all things considered - but this is very much the plan. For this year, unless significant facts change.
As we have done in the past, we will reach out to the community for feedback on building this new workshop, and I've no doubt people will have a ton of great ideas. The challenge will be integrating workshop content alongside featured content in a way that brings additional visibility to the former without compromising the integrity/visibility of the latter.
I think we can do it, and I don't get the pessimism about "oh it needs to be another site". Perhaps people feel like the judging system here is so entrenched that anything that presents a feature-rich alternative will never happen, but I think we can - and SHOULD - try to make both systems work.
Ultimately, it's the 21st century. If people want to release VGM arrangements, they have a multitude of instant-gratification options that make a lot more sense than a dedicated site, unless you ALSO care about community and integration into a larger, VGM-centric context. SoundCloud, BandCamp, YouTube, Tindeck... the list goes on. There needs to be value added. At OCR, the value added has historically been:
- a curated, judge-evaluated collection of arrangements that conform to a loose set of meaningful standards
- a database of games, albums, songs, composers, etc. that provides additional context
- a badass community & staff
- stability, continuity, and promotion
I believe we can KEEP all four of these things INTACT while also adding on an enhanced workshop area that helps meet demand for instant-gratification, quick-feedback, ratings-enabled, community-curated mixes. Any separate site that wants to tackle these goals still needs to worry about #2 AND #3 AND #4. #2 can be solved in a number of ways that involve various technical compromises, but would be largely redundant effort. #3 & #4 are pretty difficult, when it comes down to it, and don't come overnight no matter how amazing a website you build.
To be honest, I'm a little tired of the "it has to be a separate site!!" way of thinking. It feels defeatist to me, a little pessimistic, but most of it all it makes an artificial argument that a site has to be defined by a single means of content approval/workflow. There are already several sites out there, for one. vgremix.com, gameremixes.com, etc. It's been done, it's being done, and I feel like we've seen years of why just standing up a website that offers this functionality isn't enough. On top of that, I feel like OCR has proven and continues to prove that we're capable of amazing things when the community comes together. If we add this type of system to what we've got, it might be a bumpy ride for awhile, but everything I've seen from staff, visitors, and artists suggests we can work our way through it and emerge with something awesome.
My personal observation is this: plenty of folks seem willing to weigh in and say "OMG WE NEED VGMIX BACK" or "IT HAS TO BE ANOTHER SITE" or express unfounded pessimism that we can't make this happen. Ultimately, if you care about the community, you should WANT us to succeed with this idea. I deeply hope that when we begin these efforts in earnest, we'll get constructive feedback and not kneejerk dismissal.
As we get closer to making this real, we will absolutely start a thread detailing our specific plans, point-for-point, and soliciting community feedback. I can at least confirm that ratings, likes, reviews, genre tagging, embedding soundcloud/youtube previews, file upload, AND integration with the overall OCR database are all on the table. If you add all that up, like I said... I'm psyched, because I think it'll be rather awesome. Just need to get it done!
- a curated, judge-evaluated collection of arrangements that conform to a loose set of meaningful standards
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We just need a second big site in the style of VGMix...it'd be so healthy for the remix scene!
If anything, in case djp found himself with a lot of spare time, he could tackle a site design in that vein and find reliable people to maintain it.
Further developing OCR is probably a full time hobby in itself though. But he could do some networking for such a project on the side, and with any luck find some talent to take most of the workload off him.
So, not talking a full blown sister side, but some organisational nudging and oversight to get the right people out of the woodwork. Giving such a site the OCR brand wouldn't be advisable anyway, it needs its own identity.
probably not saying anything new here...i expect that djp was very interested in the revival of VGMix.
Pursuing the netlabel route and all is a logical step.
I just wanna note that devoting some energy to this idea would be the biggest service to the VG remixing scene possible, imo.
Even if it's just on the back burner, if you keep an eye open, things might fall into place in a year or two...
Also twigy, i think you play too much starcraft, or LoL, or something with metal themed tiers anyway
Disagree; I've always felt this was something that we CAN and SHOULD achieve HERE, and that's the plan for this year and next. Essentially, we're going to replace the existing workshop forum with "Workshop on Steroids" - where instead of just posting a thread, you'll be able to associate the mix with a game, songs, integrate into the main OCR database a bit more, embed a soundcloud or youtube, and optionally enable ratings and reviews and likes.
It should be rather awesome, and rather popular, and the key is that it will be integrated on game, system, composer, etc. pages. "Featured" mixes will still be promoted more prominently - that's a given - but "Workshop" mixes will really become first-class citizens in most ways that are meaningful.
This is a niche art form, and I believe centralization makes more sense than bifurcation.
What do you think? I'd love to use this thread to discuss these plans.
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Absolutely noted; will be handled in the redesign, and I'll try and handle it BEFORE the redesign. Some minor changes should be going live in the next couple weeks, and if I can work this in, I absolutely will.
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Wadda punk...
Happy bday, of course!
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By "minimum resolution of 1200 pixels," do you mean it has to be a bare minimum of 1200x1200, or simply 1200 altogether? I could do it either way -- I'm just a bit confused on that part.
1200x1200 resolution; higher preferred, if manageable!
1200 total pixels would be like a desktop icon
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with! -
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We've extended the deadline an extra week - new cutoff is 3/31!!
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Do you guys have a logo designed? My buddy was live streaming himself drawing his cover last night and we weren't sure what to do about a logo.
I really want to show off the progress so far... but since this is a contest I don't know if I should!
No logo yet - it's entirely optional, but if you wanna take a stab, as long as it's on a separate layer from the actual cover art, that'd be awesome!
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So, with the eventual move to IPB, will the move be to IPB 3.X or IPB 4.0 which is supposedly coming out in Q2 this year?
Exactly. We're not sure about this yet. Hopefully IPS4/IPB4.
At any rate, it's far more important that we make the RIGHT enhancements to the site... ultimately "V6" - and any version number - is just a milestone for a certain set of functionality & corresponding GUI changes. Nothing's broken right now, just a bit dated. It's extremely hard to work on improvements while continuing to maintain an active site, I can tell you that much. Patience is appreciated.
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Quick question - does the person need to submit every level + title, or is it more a pick-and-choose type of thing where they do what they can? I know at least one person who might be able to help, but I doubt she'd have the time for every stage and the title.
Pick-and-choose, absolutely.
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Wait you mean
V6 is actually happening?!?
It was never not happening, it was simply deferred as we:
- Dealt with life & continued site operations, and more specifically...
- Weighed our options with regards to the future of vBulletin and any alternatives
Yes, we are slow & deliberate, but we've also been around for 14 years, with almost zero downtime, putting out some great music. Rather than doing radical overhauls or site resets on a regular basis, we've been pragmatic, and that pragmatism has contributed to stability & our ability to do a lot of other cool stuff, so I'm not crying.
This year though, this year...
- Dealt with life & continued site operations, and more specifically...
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I'm sorry, I don't mean to be offensive
Just found it sort of funny.
Not intending to be disrespectful of anyone, I'm just an extremely sarcastic person with a seriously dry sense of humor which doesn't normally come out correctly through text. I apologize.
No worries. And seriously, legitimately, if you know people you think might be interested, and you want this album out ASAP (as you probably do, as do I), let 'em know!
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well this just goes to show that "late 2013" most certainly was about half a year off.
hahahaha
Late 2013 = December. Half a year = June 2014. Nothing certain OR "most" certain about it not being out sooner than that.
Time spent making observations of this nature is time wasted not actually helping with the task at hand, which is the thread topic.
Your "hahahaha" combined with the sentiments you've expressed towards OCR on other forums, where you thought you wouldn't be found, suggests to me that perhaps you're no longer interested in participating in anything we do... please let me know if this is accurate, and I can ban you to prevent the temptation. Otherwise, yeah... this type of comment doesn't seem helpful at all. If you can think of on-topic ways to actually chip in, let's go with those instead...
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Thanks, greatly appreciated!
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Plans for Expanding Workshop & Offering "Instant Upload/Feedback" Functionality to OC ReMix
in General Discussion
Posted
Well... I strongly agree. Certainly we'd maintain the current capability (via thread titles) of marking something as WIP or Finished, and certainly that would be emphasized wherever workshop mixes are being listed, throughout the site.
Beyond that, and making ratings opt-out on a per-mix basis, did you have any specific concerns about the system I've been describing not being able to make both audiences happy?
Great stuff man; I edited in responses based on current plans.
Regarding automatic source links, well, you'd be able to link and/or embed YouTubes, and there are a lot of YTs out there. This isn't truly "automatic" but it should be easy enough for a submitting artist to quickly find the source tune(s) involved and embed them into the body of their mixpost, for quick reference. I think that's a good way of addressing this use case.
Regarding SoundCloud style timestamp comments - that would be far too much custom development & wheel-reinventing to implement ourselves. And why bother, when SoundCloud's done such a good job? Instead, as with YouTube embeds, we'd allow SoundCloud embeds, which of course support timestamp comments. Hopefully this will have two effects:
All of your points about synergies between the workshop and submission queue need to be sorted out, and we're going to have internal staff decisions about what we think is best and makes the most sense before presenting our plan to the community. I can of course confirm that the judges panel isn't going away, and that mix evaluation will still be a core operating principle of the site. One option under consideration is that everything posted to the workshop that's marked as final will be also considered a submission. We could potentially add an "opt-out" of formal judging/featured status, but that's something we need to decide on internally and weigh the potential impacts. I love your thinking though, as you've touched on a lot of the potential impacts/uses of the planned system.