Archaon

That depends on what you mean by "being a gentleman". This is like the "Holding the door open for a woman isn't sexist!" thing. Yeah, maybe not in and of itself, but if you feel compelled to do it for women and only women, that's probably indicative of some sexist attitudes, because why the hell do only women deserve courtesy?

I can give you this and it's called Cho Aniki. You apparently haven't heard of it. That pretty much says it all.

But it's not as bad as violence against women, right? I mean, that's what matters, isn't it? Do you realise what you're saying? "Sure, you can have intelligent, strong, driven female characters, as long as they're sexually objectified too!" And stop trying to pull the "but it's not as sexist as THIS" crap. It's pointless. Unless you're discussing a campaign to have all women in the world raped to death, there will always be something "more sexist". That doesn't make whatever you're talking about not sexist.

Haven't we established that gaming is a male-dominated hobby? Is it not true that there are many more men on this forum than women? Male dominated hobby + Male dominated forum = More men talking about a thing than women! This is a pointless argument to make anyway. So what if more men talk about it than women? If a thing is sexist, it's sexist. It doesn't matter whether a man or a woman points it out.

Actually, wasn't AngelCityOutlaw the one who said: Come on dude, they're just harmless jokes! Are you saying this kind of thing's as bad as violence against women?! Madness!

Actually, the thing that's really annoying about these discussions is Has it occurred to you that women speak out against this stuff too? Because they do! "So the dude calls black people niggers, so what, it's not like he's going around murdering them or anything!"

Dude, I get where you're coming from, but given that Bayonetta exists against the backdrop that is "gaming in general", you can't really blame someone for not thinking it's a parody. Heavy armour, man.

No. Racism/sexism/any kind of "ism" isn't just hatred. It's many things. In days gone by, a lot of people in America probably didn't "hate" black people, but they really shouldn't be in the same schools as the white kids, right? I mean, I've got nothing against them, but that's just how things are, right? And, I mean, I don't hate women or anything, but they really should stick to being housewives. Nothing against them, really, I love women, but that's just their role in the world, right?

Yes, actually, it is. It is sexual objectification. That is a degrading thing. So what, having a family means you can't be sexist now? Irrelevant. I could flat out tell a woman to get back in the kitchen without actually believing that women belong in the kitchen. That doesn't magically make it okay to say it. Okay, so let's go back to what you were saying earlier. 1. We probably would have more discussion in that vein if these threads didn't invaribly attract hordes of ignorant people folding their arms and saying "Well *I* don't see how any of this is sexist." 2. You can, in fact, create this environment while also making men more aware of sexism. It's not one or the other. EDIT: In other words, "This one woman didn't find it offensive, therefore it must not be offensive. Because in order for something to be sexist, it must offend all women, everywhere, without fail."

MALE. POWER. FANTASY. At least try and act like you're reading the thread! Well it seems to ME that whenever people discuss racism against blacks they seem to neglect mentioning that racism towards WHITE people exists! It's not like one is a much bigger and more widespread problem than the other or anything!

If you aren't saying it isn't a problem, what are you saying? "Is anyone surprised that a male-dominated area turns out things that pander to men?" No! Not really! When did anyone say they were? Keep in mind that "scantily-clad females" are not the entirety of the problem.

Yeah, why would a black person find that KKK ethnic cleansing shooter offensive? It's only fiction! Grow a thicker skin, guys!

As an added note, I like how you and zircon seem to have this idea that women are genetically predisposed to not liking FPS games, rather than, I dunno, this being an issue with the whole male-dominant marketing thing. Again. EDIT: And horrible misogynist online communities, of course.

No, but so what? Just because something is an obvious consequence doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Being a man doesn't force you to design women with huge tits. The more people become aware of this issue, the more people are going to say "Hey, women might want to play this game too, maybe I should rein in the male-pandering a bit." Except that the reason more women aren't involved in the game industry is basically "sexism".

Again, though, that's a male power fantasy. There's no real way to gauge this universally, but polls often suggest that the big, rugged space-marine types are not favoured by women. Men designed for men, women designed for men. And again, it's not just attractiveness that's the problem, it's objectification. If these rugged war heroes were going around in daft-looking armour designed to show off their asses, that would be one thing, but it rarely happens. Men are allowed to cover up. They are allowed to wear armour that looks like it'd actually protect them. Women get, you know, the video I posted earlier. Are you even listening

They have no problem doing it for men, so why the double-standard? Why do women have to default to eye-candy when men are allowed to run the gamut?. Also, it's less about attractiveness and more about sexual objectification. It's not just "female characters are attractive", it's "female characters are attractive and have huge breasts and show off their cleavage and stand with their hips stuck out for no reason and so on and so forth". You can't look at each individual issue in a vacuum here.

It's not an issue of realism. You are the one who just said that characters should only be "unattractive" if there's a story reason for it, which is stupid in itself, but I'm also pointing out that often there is a "story reason" for a female character to not be a supermodel, and yet she still is. I wonder why. It's a male power fantasy. The men are designed for men. The women are also designed for men. This is the problem. It is not difficult to grasp. You have zero understanding of this issue and should probably stop talking until that changes.

YEAH because that will totally improve the situation oh wait no it will not And let's bear in mind that this is a MMORPG. A game where you create your own character. Guys, you get the full gamut! You can be a pretty boy or a total badass, you choose! Look at all this cool armour you get! Women, you are tits and ass with a sword or maybe a staff. Want to play as one of the awesome Too bad, they're male only. Who wants to play a big, bulky woman, right? But don't worry! We designed this race of cute little fairy people with kitty ears,

The story often does call for it! Women who should be buff, given their profession, are not! Women who fight with swords and things and therefore probably shouldn't leave vital areas exposed still wear armour that shows off their cleavage! Also, just as an example. look at Kratos. That dude's got an ugly mug. Why? Would the story have been affected at all if he'd had a youthful, handsome face? No. They just designed him that way. But when you want to do the same thing for a female character, suddenly you need a "reason" for it, otherwise she should just be generically pretty.

Also, the problem doesn't end at non-gamer women. There are a lot of women who do enjoy video games and yet are still, oddly enough, put off by This is HEAVY ARMOUR.

So you're basically just arguing against strawmen, then. The point isn't "we need more ugly girls", the point is "we need more female characters that aren't catered to a male ideal." A grizzled male warrior in a game will look the part, while a grizzled female warrior will look exactly like every other skimpily dressed female warrior except maybe with a scar. A small one. Can't have it affect her looks at all. Whether they were put there for the sole purpose of being eye-candy is irrelevant. They're still eye-candy. The design is still intended for a male audience..You still have strong, tough-looking men stood next to supermodel women, even though they're both supposed to be warriors . You still have men running around in actual armour while the women get steel swimsuits. You still have women in passive, damsel-in-distress/love interest roles while men have all the agency. And so on.

And? If you think Ivy's hot, fine. That doesn't make you a sexist. If you think all women in all games should look like Ivy, regardless of how alienating it is to female gamers, then guess what?

Nobody is suggesting that every woman who doesn't play games doesn't do so because games are sexist. Even if games were not sexist, plenty of women still wouldn't be into them, just as plenty of men aren't. That's fine. But the fact remains that gaming is still an extremely male-dominant hobby, and the reason for that is that it is sexist. Sure, if you ask some random woman on the street why she doesn't play games, she probably won't say "Because they're sexist," but so what? What does that mean? Maybe she says something like "I just never felt like they were for me." Hmm. I wonder if that could be caused by games being marketed so heavily towards men and only men? I love how "white knight" has become a catch-all term for "anyone with a viewpoint that works in favour of the accursed womankind".

There is a difference between saying "There are multiple factors in mainstream games and the gaming community that many women find alienating" and "I totally talked to this one girl who said big boobs are fine, so I don't know what you're arguing about!"

Tensei and Bleck, I'm glad we're all on the same wavelength here but seriously, quit stealing my thunder No no, I wasn't saying they look the same. I was saying the opposite. Tifa is skinny game girl designed for men, other picture is actual powerfully built woman.