wildfire Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 This is my first attempt at remixing, so bear with me. I've been working on this one for a long time, but all I have to work with is FL studio and I have no fancy soundfonts and I don't really know how to use the program very well. It'd be great to get some feedback about what I should do next, I don't really know where to go from here. Download it and let me know what you think! Thanks! http://illusenmage.googlepages.com/home ~UPDATE~ Got newer versions now, take a listen please! Haven't been able to come up with a good drum beat yet though. Also, what do you think about it's name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozlifyme Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Man Ecco the Dolphin was the shit back in the day. This mix has some great potential. I throughly enjoy the synths that start at about :32. Maybe its just me, but I think there has to be some sort of percussion in there. I think in the lull at 2:52 would be a great place to add in some percussion. Also, theres a new synth thats only in the last couple seconds that I really like. You should put that in the song somewhere else too. I'd have to say this isn't ready for OCR but I'm still gonna put it on my iPod. And you know what, this seems to sound really close to mixing Golden Axe and Ecco together. Would have never thought it could happen, but you should think on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 The first half minute needs some cuts or variation. The beep synth is okay, but the pads in the background feel a bit too simple and sharp. 1:10 nice, variation! Pads should be softer here too. It needs some more rhythmic variation, especially when it returns to the 0:32-like section. I recommend using a pad with more cutoff and faster decay, and using that more rhythmically. After 2:30, it feels like it's still the intro. That's half way through the remix. Break at about 2:50 is good, but it comes too late, and the stabs are too sharp. More cutoff, softer sound. I'd also replace the beeping syn th for something fatter. The panning synth that follows that section is annoying. I can hear the idea, but the execution doesn't mesh with the rest. Also, you went back to the repetitive intro section after that. Same rhythm throughout, same instruments, it gets boring. The flimsy panning synth doesn't help much. Towards the end, it sounds better again, tho the stabs still bother me. The soft beepy synth is great for intro and ending, but not always in between. What you should do is cut out repetition, aim for 3:30 instead of 5:XX. If you get it down to baout 4 minutes, it's good enough. Add more variation, like replacing the beepy synth with something fatter some way into the track, using softer synths, varying the rhythm more. Boz is right about about the need for percussion, although rhythmic variation could easily be ised instead. That's my gripes about this. Length and repetition. This could turn out great, but it needs to be cut down to something less ambitious. I know cutting your WIP can be difficult, but back it up and then make some radical cuts, leave out the often repeated section, cut out half of it in other places, and then start varying rhythms. Tweak synths when you feel like it. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfire Posted February 7, 2008 Author Share Posted February 7, 2008 Anyone good with drum tracks? I can't really think of what would go well with what I have so far... any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfire Posted February 9, 2008 Author Share Posted February 9, 2008 Would you mind listening to my newest version please? It's on the same website, called "Undertow - Version 4.5" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Just so you know, there's better hosts around that googlepages. If you'll be hosting more than one WIP on googlepages, you better not put them on the same page. Many who comment on WIPs are lazy (I know I am), so different tracks on the same page is not a good idea. Still, you haven't done anything bad yet, so I'm not gonna bitch about this. v4.5: Cool intro. The instrument that comes in at 0:10 is a bit repetitive tho, so consider reworking that a bit. leaving it out occasionally wouldn't be a bad idea, as it gets kind'a cluttered at 0:22. At least match the rhythms of it and the melody better from there on. Mixingwise, the pad is quite loud. While the arduous parts of mixing usually don't happen until the end of the production, a preliminary mixing is always good. Decide which instrument is important when, and drop the others accordingly. Drums are usually important, but raise and lower to always provide as much rhythm as you feel is appropriate. At 1:10, the previous lead instrument seems to occupy the same frequency range as the present lead. Drop either an octave, or leave out the background "lead". 1:31 back to repetition... maybe a bit too soon. This would be the perfect place to run the same thing with something cut out of it (like the lead). It'll less melodic and more soundscaping. Could sound good. 2:14 Low pad is too loud. By 2:35, I'm tired of the repeititive lead and it's accompaniment. You need some other way to get it across, I suggest playing it half speed with some other instrument, then modifying it to match another chord progression. It ends in good time, but probably needs a better ending, whether bigger or just lighter. This is a step up in terms of quality, but there's still headaches ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozlifyme Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 O man, you took my advice and put that synth in V1 in the intro and it worked out like a charm. I love where this is going. If you keep this up, you'll definitely get it passed. I'd say it's still cluttered in some places. I really notice that in the 2:20 range, it seemed pretty cluttered. This will definitely be on my fav list when its finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadorf Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 wow...someone else FINALLY touched the music of ecco 2 on gamegear, about damn time. i almost mixed this song once, but just couldnt come up with anything. what you have is a good start, but still has a ways to go i think. a lot of the sounds used seem a little uhmm low in quality, im not sure what to recommend though as far as sounds go, im just happy someone else is mixing something from this game finally maybe someone else can point you in the right direction for sounds good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfire Posted February 15, 2008 Author Share Posted February 15, 2008 There's a new version on the site now.... Do you guys think I should do anything else with the composition or should I just focus on the instrumentation and mixing? Comments are appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 v5: Good sound upgrade and mixfix. It's a bit hard to grasp what's intro and what isn't. Overall, there's a really weird lack of direction at times. Direction is difficult unless you've planned the progression from the beginning, or if you're really lucky. 1:24, the stab doesn't sound good, it's like the high range has been cut off and it's all too dry. Give it some more release time, drop decay or sustain level if it becomes a too long sound. At 2:20 it's starting to sound like the ending, at least from how cluttered it is. Kill the clutter, see what tracks you doin't need there. At 3:12, the clutter fades, but 'til then, unclutter, unclutter, unclutter! While you've successfully stretched the source material without looping the same section over and over, you've still managed to make it kind'a repetitive, and disorienting your listeners. This listener at least. You could have ended it around 2:40 or something, and didn't. Where are you heading with this track? Take a step back and look at it like looking on a map, and ask: where do you start from, where are you heading, what will you see on the way? Summed up: Sound is okay, arrangment is okay, direction is lacking. Now comes the hard part: chopping up your baby, moving parts around, and throwing away the stuff you don't need. (don't forget to take a backup) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozlifyme Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Definitely getting there. Overall I thinks its great. Only things that I would suggest are to work on the percussion and thin the tracks out a bit. Also, Roz was talking about finding the ending and I have to agree that you need to figure out where you want the listener to end up. It was probably a mistake to bring back the original melody at 2:30. You should be starting to wind down by now, maybe making a beat out of the background synth that you can hear under everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfire Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 I added a new melody to the end half of the song, I think it fits well but I'd appreciate a second opinion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 The two leads at 0:20 don't work together so well. It might be their stereo width or just some odd phaser effect you've got on one of them. Whatever, see if you can make them fit together better. Use headphones. I recommend turning off the background tracks, the pads and all that stuff, and just listening to the leads. The new melody works well, methinks, sounds fitting and meshes well with the source. The drums are pretty weak. Especially the snare. And without any hihats or anything, they feel kind'a buried. The lack of hihats or other hi-frequency sounds makes the whole track feel a bit muddy. You might be able to work around that by raising the master track EQ's high range a couple of dB, but I recommend adding hihats or shakers or something. You should end the drums at 3:12. It currently feels like it's gonna go on for a long time, and it's only 10 seconds. It's nice, but it still needs more fixes, and some variation. It's repetitive, so work on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfire Posted March 18, 2008 Author Share Posted March 18, 2008 I have a new version done. not much in the way of drastic changes but it's been tweaked a little and some sounds changed. How do I know it's ready to submit? Is it hard to get your submission on the site? How much more work do I need to do to get it up to OCRemix standard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 I had totally forgotten how this sounded. Three notes in, I remember again. Let's start from the bad news. This would get a NO. The overall sound is the same throughout, and that's a problem. It's not a very enjoyable sound. It works for a while, but it gets boring quite quickly. Since this isn't a very upbeat remix, I don't think you need this rude leads. Soften the whole track by adding key-relative, weak cutoffs, possibly reworking the synths or starting them from scratch. I'd keep it for the intro, but around 0:20, I'd swap most, if not all of them, for softer ones. Imagine this on piano, it'd be pretty. the arrangement might not work as well on piano, but soft sounds in that direction would make it great. Do key signature changes, change the chord structure, chop up the melodies... It needs to be different. The arrangement might appeal to the judges, I like it, but the synths and the (sorry to say) boring sound is ultimately earn it a NO. I'm in the mood for some in-depth feedback, so I'll just post this and get back to you with a more detailed analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 About 120 bpm, easy to analyse. Thanks for that. What I did was to break it up into ten-second segments and draw what they did for the track, if they made it more or less exciting. Here's what I found. Sadly, it doesn't really get much more exciting that the 0:00-0:20 section. The breaks and progression keep it from being a wash-rinse-repeat kind of mix, but it still gets repetitive. The break at 1:20 is a great idea, it's also the perfect place to change chord progression. If you do change chord progression, you have to adapt the melodies. This will make it different enough. Instead of the same four chords over and over, why not make an eight-chord progression, starting from the same but being... different. The second voice at 2:30 reminds me I should work on my Seiken Densetsu 3 project tracks. Very Hiroki Kikuta-like. Good, but we're back in the same old melody. By then, you should have raised the key signature by a note (two seminotes) to give it more energy towards the end. And while on the topic, the end needs to be bigger. It does work with the long high notes, but they're a bit too shrill and stale. It also takes too long for it to die out after that. Bigger! I noticed that I could play F#m, A, D, E on top of what you've got. You could use those chords in the end (transposed if you do a key sig change). Would make it less minor and more enjoyable. You could use these chords in the ending, in the break, whatever. You'd only have to make minor changes to make it major... okay, pun too bad to finish. That's what I got from half an hour's analysis of the arrangement and how it can be adapted to be more enjoyable. Then there's the synths that should be less shrill and more organic. There's a few that are too simple, some that are painfully phased, and some that are just noisy and shrill. Take a backup and replace _all_ synths with softer ones. If it sounds better, post it. If not, revert. Then I could comment on the drums too, the rhythm gets pretty boring too. The drums are overall weak, but I think this is a track that could do with drums, honestly. Mute the tracks, see if I'm right. If not, unmute. -- Add more variation ... using softer synths, varying the rhythm more. I said that in the first feedback I gave this wip. It still applies. This all, while not very positive feedback, it's constructive. I hope this won't discourage you, cuz this track's arrangement is a few key changes from great, imho, and the production should be easier once you get a soundscape that's more enjoyable. -- To answer your question, how do you know when its submittably good? The answer: I dunno. I thought several of my works were, but I asked some of the judges over irc and they said NO. The best answer is probably "when they sound as good as the recent stuff posted on ocr". This has the potential to get on OCR, it's just a production job and some arrangement tweaks away from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozlifyme Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 Love the piano and other stuff you added at 1:20. Wonderful arrangement at the end but it still sorta ends suddenly. Still needs something else, not sure what though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eino Keskitalo Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 [version 12] First of all, this is a great first effort in my opinion. About passing to OCR, I'd say working on your craft and making the track as good as you can and learning would be a good focus, not getting to OCR. OCR is a good long-time aim, as getting posted marks your arrangement and production is up to certain, pretty high-standards. But no reason to worry about it. That's just my two cents, for whatever it's worth. I like the general mood of this track. It feels like a chillout electronica track to me. Some of the leads are indeed a bit harsh/hard sounding for that. The beeping lead in the beginning sounds like it's in the right alley. The one that first sounds at 0:23 is less fitting. Some lowpass filtering might soften it - I don't know if FL Studio faciliates that, but if it does, experiement with it. (hmm, lots of instruments seem to have some sort of filtering on them, so I guess it does) There's a lot of nice background detail going on, which I like. The filtered, gated, panning "hard" sounding synthy thing, for example. I kinda like that snare sound you have there, but that's probably just me. If you really don't know how you'd approach doing a drum track for this, you could always try to get someone to collaborate with you. I've personally always found collabs the most inspiring way of doing music. I hope you keep working on this one! --Eino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozlifyme Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Wow. I listen to V1 and the new wip every time a new one comes out. Its kinda nifty to hear the differences like that. It really makes you appreciate how much work is actually going into the piece. I love the melodies that you put in the second half of the song. Those fit perfect. I love the double noted you put in some of the chorus. ............Unfortunately, i still think the ending needs work. I know you'll come out with something good. Keep it up and this should get accepted eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfire Posted April 16, 2008 Author Share Posted April 16, 2008 There's a new version up now, version 14.5. I think that I'm done with the composition and I'm going to mainly work on the sound overall (eq and stuff). Let me know what you think! I appreciate everyone who's helped so far, thanks guys! http://illusenmage.googlepages.com/home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eino Keskitalo Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Hey, glad to see this updated! It sounds improved. The harsh lead isn't harsh anymore, great! I see you managed to achieve that without really changing the basic sound, nice. --Eino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfire Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share Posted October 8, 2008 So after a whole summer of not working on this project, I picked it back up last night. My main focus right now is getting the arrangement all set, and then after that I'll mess more with the sound mixing. Any comments are greatly appreciated! http://illusenmage.googlepages.com/Undertow19.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Hey, welcome back. As for the track, it's less repetitive than I remember. I think you should rewrite the drums from scratch. It could be that the arrangement is otherwise fine, and the drums are just making it sound more repetitive. One thing you could do is to have a look at the repeated melodies, see if you can change their feeling. It sounds kind'a controlled and melancholic, in lack of a better description, so you might want to move the repeated bits to another chord, perhaps a major chord instead of the minor it's in now. That's just a suggestion. You should redo the drums, tho, they're responsible for a lot of the repetition. I'm not gonna get into the production issues as you're currently working on the arrangement, but I do recommend listening to some random ocr tunes to see if there's anything in a style or with a sound that you think this would work well in. Listening to remixes of the water music from DKC and SM64 to see if it gets you any good ideas is a start, but pretty much anything you think would work is worth trying. Remixer, listeners, please take the time to answer the questions in this post, we're trying to improve the WIP board and we need your feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eino Keskitalo Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I like this piece a lot. It's got a great mood to it. It's also not just a single unchanging mood from start to finish, I like the chord change around 2:00, and the modulation towards the end is very effective. I think Roz is correct in thinking that the drums make it feel more repetitive than it is. Perhaps experiment with different approaches - you can enhance the different sections of the tune greatly by varying your beat and percussion in them. The rhythm track is definitely where you should focus, the piece stands to gain the most from that area. I kinda like how minimalistic the percussion is right now. You could try to do a similarly subtle percussion track, but with a lot more variance. Also you could experiment by doing really huge, booming and loud beats for it. The right rhythm track might be somewhere in between or a combination of different stuff. There certainly are a lot of possibilities. Another (minor) thing that came to mind was that you could perhaps try to start with the ambience, let it play a bit before the first melody comes in. Probably just a few seconds, not like 30 seconds or anything. Might be worth trying if it fits. --Eino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfire Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share Posted October 14, 2008 I uploaded a newer version. I took out the drum track and at some point I'll make a better one, but right now I'm focusing on the composition of all the other elements. Let me know what you think! http://illusenmage.googlepages.com/Undertow19.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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