Symphobia - have it, amazing

[beckett007]

A while back there was a thread going around about the new Project Sam library Symphobia.... it's far more than what some thought it was. It's NOT just a sketch pad, if used properly it is more than capable of producing production quality work for film, tv, and games. That said, if you can afford it and are hoping to be more than a hobbyist... GET IT! It's worth every penny!

Here are a couple of pieces I've done with it over the last 24 hours:

EVERYTHING you hear is from symphobia, Nightmare was done in 1 hour, and Handy Fight was done in 3.

Nightmare:

http://www.richdouglas.net/rifts/Nightmare.mp3

Handy Fight:

http://www.richdouglas.net/rifts/Rifts1_HandyFight_RD.mp3

Handy Fight - with no editing or processing, this is how it sounds right out of the box.

http://www.richdouglas.net/rifts/HandyFight_RD_NOPROCESS.mp3

Admitedly it can take quite a bit of effort to make it sound really good, you have to have some decent mastering chops. But it does sound good right out of the box. Another thing to note, this set IS NOT for beginners. If you dont know how to properly orchestrate and use the effects with the orchestra properly it will sound like noise rather than music. If you're thinking about going pro, I can't reccomend this lib enough, good stuff.

Rich

[Spc1st]

Certainly sounds amazing as anything from Project Sam so far. Unfortunately, the price tag is a rather too much for me as a hobby purchase, but it definitely sounds like a worthwhile purchase investment for pros.

[SnappleMan]

Sounds like everything else out in the market, veto. I'd love to hear some demos of this stuff that weren't all cheesy-summer blockbuster-movie score sounding.

[Blue123]

Hmm, not bad... but I'm more of a fan of the stuff from EW/QL. Looking at it, the Dystopia II that's in it seems pretty appealing to me.

[beckett007]

Fair enough, to each their own. In my opinion... and in the opinion of every other pro composer I've talked to about it, this blows every other library completely away. The sound quality is far more vibrant, epic, and realistic than any patch in EWQL. On top of that the playability is far superior.

Symphobia is totally made for that huge epic summer blockbuster / horror film sound, which is what most game producers want anyhow. So if you're looking for something more intimate... definitely pass. Personally I compose using ensembles quite a bit when under a time crunch so this was a godsend, especially since the sound quality is unlike anything else I've ever heard sample wise.

[zircon]

Wow, this does sound pretty amazing... how many of these patches you're using are already layered, and how many are single instruments/ensembles?

[PrototypeRaptor]

Hey, quick question -it's just a brass/string ensemble, right? It's not divided up into horn, trombone, etc etc...

So my question is...is everything tutti as I thought or is there a way to do sections?

I mean, hans zimmer is good and all, but I like a little 'more' than just the same eighth notes played by the entire ensemble...XD

BTW your stuff sounds really good - enjoyed the fight one quite a bit

[beckett007]

Zircon - I utilized the combined string / brass staccatos for the fight cue, then layered an extra set of string staccatos to fatten up the mix a bit. The library has a section in which the string and brass section were recorded together rather than layered in post. So everything sounds very real and natural. Then to add more realism I added in some of the FX patches... which are very extensive. The FX patches are worth the price of admission alone and really add a lot of credibility to compositions if used properly. Also, they have some fantastic low range sections such as low string and brass staccatos, low string sustains, and low string sustains with a bass synth added in for extra punch. I used those patches throughout the fight cue as well. It should be said too that Symphobia is not a memory hog like EWQL. I had close to 14 instruments loaded on my laptop with 2 gigs of ram... and had tons of memory to spare.

Prototype - Thanks! The library is divided up into sections and has a brass / string combined section I mentioned above. So you have your tuba, bones, horns, and trumpets in one set of articulations laid out tutti style. You have your basses, celli, violas, violins in one set of articulations laid out tutti style, and you have the woodwinds laid out tutti style. Also, there are string and horn patches with pre played open fiths, minor / major chords which totally rock and are very usable for extremely lush cues. On top of that there are full blown orchestral risers, hits, stabs, clusters, FX, etc etc that really help to add tons of weight and fight the synthy sound most libraries fall victim to. There are a few violin only patches, and a couple of horn marcato patches but for the most part it is an ensemble library. Honestly, most of us are layering instruments in such a way to fatten up our orchestrations anyhow... so this library is a godsend and makes things go much quicker. It is "hans zimmer in a box" without a doubt, but a ton of other film composers such as Christopher Young and the late Jerry Goldsmith layer ensembles like this. There's a pdf on the project sam site that lists out all of the articulations if you're curious.

Can't say this enough. It's well worth the money and has some of the most realistic strings ever heard.

Rich

[Blue123]

This does sound pretty good, actually... but it does have soloist players, right? Or not? Like a solo trumpet, solo horn, solo violin, solo trombone, etc.

That's the only thing about this that irks me a bit. It's very expensive, and I like to know a lot about what I buy. The instrument listing on the website didn't really tell me much. In fact, it seemed pretty small. If I get this, I might use EWQL with it to provide the stuff that it doesn't have... i.e. a Piano.

[beckett007]

Nope... no solo patches. It is expensive.. but thats to weed out the hobbyists... the sound of symphobia is unrivaled by any library currently out there. As you probably know, you get what you pay for when it comes to sample libraries and with this one you're paying for the amazing sound quality, the extensive FX patches, and a library that is very epic in nature. Just because it's not an all in one sort of thing like EWQL Gold or Platinum certainly shouldn't scare you off... it's worth the price.

You can see a complete program list here:

http://www.projectsam.com/files/documents/ProjectSAM_Symphobia_Program_List.pdf

Here's another one I did and mixed in a stylus rmx patch.. everything else is from Symphobia. The drone and the duduk are from the additional patches within the library. Did it in well under an hour and it definitely needs some mixing / mastering love but it's not too bad.

http://www.richdouglas.net/rifts/Rifts2_TrackingBillyUnfal_RD.mp3

Rich

[Blue123]

Wow, that is good... I think the extras you get (i.e. the ambiece and ethnic patches) are worth it alone. I think I'll keep this in mind, for when I get some extra cash. I'm poor at the moment, LOL.

[dannthr]

Meh.

I love Project SAM's recording process. They have a fantastic sound. I don't think any of MY pro composer friends would say this library blows everything else away as a library goes, but as sound, it's very good.

I think it would make a very nice suppliment to a more sophisticated orchestra library.

Unfortunately for all of us, we will have to endure Symphobia orchestral effects sounds in trailers and low-budget sci-fi/action movies for the next 5 years.

Personally, the price is prohibitive for what it offers, but I wouldn't mind having it. If I had it, I would use it. Probably in the background mix to beef up a section for some reason.

Let's hope the Project SAM guys do a real library, eh?

[Hy Bound]

Well, as long as we're talking about all of our composer friends, I guess i should mention that i know Harry Gregson-Williams, Hans Zimmer, and... Timbaland (hur hur)... intimately... VERY intimately... After that one night... That Hans is such a slut...

Anyway, me having no composer friends aside, This seems cool and all, but for that price ($1500) you can get EWQLSO Platinum and then use some of your own FX, like Waves, Reaktor or anything else to get what you're looking for... Sure its a tad more expensive to get two programs if you don't already have some sort of FX bank, but the FX will work with more than just the sample library.

To me, the only and i mean ONLY reason I would buy this is if its less CPU intensive, but even then I'm getting a new supercomputer so that point is becoming moot for me. Sure, the sound is good, but you can get that same sound (if not better, with multiple solo instruments to boot) for the same price with EWQLSO. Hell, Gold ($500) is worth the money alone if you don't want more instrument articulations than you need.

To each their own though; I'm not knocking you for posting your opinion, seeing as how its a worthwhile alternative. Especially if you hate that EWQL is going to a fucking retarded dongle-only sampler.

Those samples of yours are quite good by the way, the composition is very well-done.

[beckett007]

Exactly what this thread needed... a little humor . Nice!

Glad you dug my music, thanks.

I own the new play version of Gold Complete and while I think it sounds alright (damn the iLok though!)... everyone is using it these days and the samples just arent as powerful as those found in Symphobia. Also, maybe it's just me, but I HATE HATE HATE the play engine for an onslaught of reasons, though the Gold samples do sound better than ever within it. It should be said too that Symphobia does play well with other libraries... here's a new horror piece I did a couple of days ago mixing Gold with Symph:

Vampire Hunting:

http://www.richdouglas.net/rifts/Rifts3_VampireHunting_RD.mp3

All of the percussion came from Gold, and everything else is Symph.... There's no way in hell, in my opinion, the samples in Gold or Platinum can even come close to this sort of raw realistic power. On my dell inspiron laptop with 2 gigs of ram, I had both play and symph running on a total of 20 tracks... with absolutely no memory issues. A memory whore it's not. Also, the way the library was recorded far surpasses EWQL in every respect. The instruments have verb, but arent overpowered by it... they also sound much better placed in the hall than the EWQL instruments. So the result is a very nicely spaced out virtual orchestra. It's a very subtle thing thats hard to explain, but listen to these cues I've done on headphones and you'll hear what I mean.

Yes, some of the FX like the trailer risers will be overused for years to come.. but isnt that the case with the loops in stylus RMX, Stormdrum, or the patches in Gold? I hear gold and RMX all over the place in commercials, games, and trailers all the time... thats just how all sample libraries are, over used. Though if said FX patches are used sparingly to back up orchestration rather than on their own... the result is simply amazing... if your orchestration chops are there...you have a very realistic lush horror score sound on par with the likes of Jerry Goldsmith, Chris Young, James Newton Howard, or Marco Beltrami.

Rich

[firefly]

Hello all, 1st post on the forum for me. This quote had me laughing indeed:

""Unfortunately for all of us, we will have to endure Symphobia orchestral effects sounds in trailers and low-budget sci-fi/action movies for the next 5 years.""

[Sil]

The fact I can't tell your demos apart from Media Ventures scores and crap by Brian Tyler and Marco Beltrami shows just how far film scores have sunken these days. Not that your demos are bad or anything, but it's just not the same caliber of scoring from pre-1995.

[PrototypeRaptor]

derail/

Sil reminded me of a question I've been thinking about: where did the movies with actual themes go? Ya know, pre-SW ep1 Williams style themes that actually added commentary to the movie if you listened, instead of just establishing the same tired old moods.

Last movies like that I've seen were the LOTR movies and to a lesser extent Transformers.

I suppose that could be said of all orchestral music of today, though - what happened to the good ol' Beethoven, Mahler, Grieg, Holst, etc, etc style writing that was catchy and hummable, yet thoughtful and very relevant to the time period in which it was composed? Not that I have anything against hearing the greats in concert, but I want to hear something NEW that's not complete and utter crap.

Bah, humbug, I missed my time period by a couple hundred years...

/rail

[audio fidelity]

i think it's more of a genre-style thing. there are still movies that come out with powerful and memorable themes. pirates is probably a good recent example, even though hans kinda ripped himself off on that one.

it really comes down to what the director and producers want. most of the time with hollywood the music is just there for the emotionality, not necessarily as a focus of art. and those studios pumping out full scores every week certainly aren't alleviating the situation.

at least japan has it right with anime soundtracks

[Sil]

Yes, Pirates had a memorable main theme, but a lot of it was paint-by-numbers scoring with some Drop Zone thrown in. What's insane about it is that it took a team of people to make. An entire team to sound like a sample library such as this one. It won't be long before producers realize they don't need to pay 10-20 people (not to mention an entire orchestra) to work on a score if they can get these sounds for the price of one library. I'm more a one movie-one composer kind of guy myself, but not like this.

Anyway, now that I think about it, this library seems good for additional sounds as long as it's not an "be all end all" solution to running out of original ideas.

[audio fidelity]

Yes, Pirates had a memorable main theme, but a lot of it was paint-by-numbers scoring with some Drop Zone thrown in. What's insane about it is that it took a team of people to make. An entire team to sound like a sample library such as this one. It won't be long before producers realize they don't need to pay 10-20 people (not to mention an entire orchestra) to work on a score if they can get these sounds for the price of one library. I'm more a one movie-one composer kind of guy myself, but not like this.

what immediately came to my mind when i read this is that maybe hollywood will have to raise the bar higher if the quality of these sounds are made more accessible to productions and composers.

and actually think symphobia is great, but i certainly wouldn't use it as a crutch to pass off all of my compositions.

all of these sample libraries are simply tools that have their positives and negatives that change from person to person. whats important in music is the thought and emotion thats put into it. whatever tools help us there, i'm all for.

[dannthr]

derail/

Sil reminded me of a question I've been thinking about: where did the movies with actual themes go? Ya know, pre-SW ep1 Williams style themes that actually added commentary to the movie if you listened, instead of just establishing the same tired old moods.

Last movies like that I've seen were the LOTR movies and to a lesser extent Transformers.

I suppose that could be said of all orchestral music of today, though - what happened to the good ol' Beethoven, Mahler, Grieg, Holst, etc, etc style writing that was catchy and hummable, yet thoughtful and very relevant to the time period in which it was composed? Not that I have anything against hearing the greats in concert, but I want to hear something NEW that's not complete and utter crap.

Bah, humbug, I missed my time period by a couple hundred years...

/rail

About the same time composition/orchestration was reduced to piano pounding. You should hear the symphobia users talk about their demos on the forums I frequent: "I smashed this out in about an hour"

It's fine with me--everyone can start sucking all they want. Less competition for me.

[Blue123]

It's not that BAD. And of course, the more everyone else suck the easier it is for us

Although personally, I actually found the great composers such as Beethoven boring. Every time I went to see their pieces in concert I ended up falling asleep or leaving halfway. I'd take Jeremy Soule's work on Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets over all of Beethoven's works (no offence though... man was a genius, but his stuff just doesn't suit me). Guess I'm some sort of weird composer inspired by the modern composers more than the classics.

[beckett007]

"You should hear the symphobia users talk about their demos on the forums I frequent: "I smashed this out in about an hour"

Hmmm....any composer with a good business minded head on his/her shoulders would think that this is a good thing. Well, a bad thing for you since your competition will be producing music far more epic and realistic than yours in a fraction of the time. Being able to produce a very thematic and cinematic piece of music in under an hour is a godsend in my opinion... and all of the demos Ive heard from users on other boards have been pretty stellar and far more than "piano pounding" noise. Those composers by the way are for the most part far more established than you or I... you might want to be a little more mindful of your peers and what they're doing otherwise you wont be able to compete at all.

You should know that time is money in our line of work and that more importantly... that you can't judge how good a piece of music is based on the time it took to create it. If thats how you judge music... I feel sorry for you. Some amazing film scores with great hummable themes, POTC included, were done in well under a month (with samples for the most part in the case of Pirates). Not every piece of music has to be a thematic masterpiece that takes hours to compose.... subtle underscore is a very important part of building tension in games and films.

Saying that a piece of software like this is going to make your competition suck is just ridiculous... it's quite the opposite actually and it still requires (the 5 or 6 trailer risers excluded) plenty of creativity and orchestration chops to use, especially if you're doing adaptive music structures like I am for audio engines like Wwise. Jesus, do you think I just hit a c# to produce the themes in the pieces I posted? If only it were that easy. lol, if you'd give it a shot rather than bash it I'm 100% certain you'd change your tune.

"all of these sample libraries are simply tools that have their positives and negatives that change from person to person. whats important in music is the thought and emotion thats put into it. whatever tools help us there, i'm all for."

Amen. Exactly! Even more importantly, the music has got to suit the project otherwise it throws the player out... doesn't matter what tools are utilized to do this as long as this is achieved.

Alright my rant is over, sorry to sort of pick on you Dan... meant nothing hostile by it.

Rich

[Lunahorum]

"You should hear the symphobia users talk about their demos on the forums I frequent: "I smashed this out in about an hour"

Hmmm....any composer with a good business minded head on his/her shoulders would think that this is a good thing. Well, a bad thing for you since your competition will be producing music far more epic and realistic than yours in a fraction of the time. Being able to produce a very thematic and cinematic piece of music in under an hour is a godsend in my opinion... and all of the demos Ive heard from users on other boards have been pretty stellar and far more than "piano pounding" noise. Those composers by the way are for the most part far more established than you or I... you might want to be a little more mindful of your peers and what they're doing otherwise you wont be able to compete at all.

You should know that time is money in our line of work and that more importantly... that you can't judge how good a piece of music is based on the time it took to create it. If thats how you judge music... I feel sorry for you. Some amazing film scores with great hummable themes, POTC included, were done in well under a month (with samples for the most part in the case of Pirates). Not every piece of music has to be a thematic masterpiece that takes hours to compose.... subtle underscore is a very important part of building tension in games and films.

Saying that a piece of software like this is going to make your competition suck is just ridiculous... it's quite the opposite actually and it still requires (the 5 or 6 trailer risers excluded) plenty of creativity and orchestration chops to use, especially if you're doing adaptive music structures like I am for audio engines like Wwise. Jesus, do you think I just hit a c# to produce the themes in the pieces I posted? If only it were that easy. lol, if you'd give it a shot rather than bash it I'm 100% certain you'd change your tune.

"all of these sample libraries are simply tools that have their positives and negatives that change from person to person. whats important in music is the thought and emotion thats put into it. whatever tools help us there, i'm all for."

Amen. Exactly! Even more importantly, the music has got to suit the project otherwise it throws the player out... doesn't matter what tools are utilized to do this as long as this is achieved.

Alright my rant is over, sorry to sort of pick on you Dan... meant nothing hostile by it.

Rich

agree 100%

[PrototypeRaptor]

"You should hear the symphobia users talk about their demos on the forums I frequent: "I smashed this out in about an hour"

Hmmm....any composer with a good business minded head on his/her shoulders would think that this is a good thing. Well, a bad thing for you since your competition will be producing music far more epic and realistic than yours in a fraction of the time. Being able to produce a very thematic and cinematic piece of music in under an hour is a godsend in my opinion... and all of the demos Ive heard from users on other boards have been pretty stellar and far more than "piano pounding" noise. Those composers by the way are for the most part far more established than you or I... you might want to be a little more mindful of your peers and what they're doing otherwise you wont be able to compete at all.

You should know that time is money in our line of work and that more importantly... that you can't judge how good a piece of music is based on the time it took to create it. If thats how you judge music... I feel sorry for you. Some amazing film scores with great hummable themes, POTC included, were done in well under a month (with samples for the most part in the case of Pirates). Not every piece of music has to be a thematic masterpiece that takes hours to compose.... subtle underscore is a very important part of building tension in games and films.

Saying that a piece of software like this is going to make your competition suck is just ridiculous... it's quite the opposite actually and it still requires (the 5 or 6 trailer risers excluded) plenty of creativity and orchestration chops to use, especially if you're doing adaptive music structures like I am for audio engines like Wwise. Jesus, do you think I just hit a c# to produce the themes in the pieces I posted? If only it were that easy. lol, if you'd give it a shot rather than bash it I'm 100% certain you'd change your tune.

"all of these sample libraries are simply tools that have their positives and negatives that change from person to person. whats important in music is the thought and emotion thats put into it. whatever tools help us there, i'm all for."

Amen. Exactly! Even more importantly, the music has got to suit the project otherwise it throws the player out... doesn't matter what tools are utilized to do this as long as this is achieved.

Alright my rant is over, sorry to sort of pick on you Dan... meant nothing hostile by it.

Rich

So I had an amazing reply, and I took so long to type it that when I previewed post I timed out...GRAH!

First of all, I have the utmost respect for everyone who is in the business I'd like to be in and will probably never be: I'm not bashing THEM. I'm just lamenting the fact that people expect Carmina Burana and Holst every time they go to the movies.

Symphobia sounds great, and it's a great tool to get that imitation sound of the greats...but IMO, Ennio Morricone has written some emotional, lasting, epic themes that Hans Z and his ilk could never hope to create, and he did it with just a soprano and a wind orchestra, not a 500 piece brass ensemble.

All I'm trying to say is that, while a crazy brass section playing octaves and fifths might SOUND powerful, oftentimes a simple cor anglais solo and a cello can create a much more intense atmosphere. Everything doesn't have to be LOUD LOUD LOUD BAM BAM BAM HORN RIPPPPPPP ok now ppp....AND NOW SFZ SFZ SFZ SZF!!!!

But then again, what do I know - they're the ones making all the money...XD

(on a side note, I was watching "For a Few Dollars More" the other day, and I'm pretty sure that Hans stole the theme "a musical pocketwatch" almost section for section from Ennio's score for Davy Jones' theme. Start at 3:00... watch it. Organ and everything XD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-qt4XAKXFA

BTW if you havn't seen clint eastwood's trilogy of awesomeness, SHAME ON YOU. especially as a composer, ennio is AMAZING. Go buy the soundtracks now, you won't regret it. "ecstasy of gold" is probably one of the most moving pieces I've ever heard...THIS is the kind of stuff we need more of in movies. Just sayin.)