Sprout Procession (Sprout Tower)

[SLyGeN]

So, I've been composing stuff for a few months now after taking a couple of theory courses, and have received generally positive reviews from musicians and non-musicians alike.

Where I feel I'm lacking is the processing part of the production. Putting shit on paper is easy for me, but I'm a novice when it comes to DAW's. I'm using Reaper right now.

After finding some cheap/free gems online, I think I've finally got something approaching OCR standards.

So, here's my Sprout Procession. This place needs some more Pokémon remixes, and it'd be sweet to see my name up there.

I think the composition is pretty solid, although I'm open to suggestions.

The most useful comments for me will be suggestions on making it sound cleaner (explained to me in basic terms), and suggestions of different VSTi's to use.

edit: oh yeah. Here's the source.

[Gario]

Post the source please - it'll help us critique it better.

The first thing I notice is the counterpoint... I'll be frank, it really ruins the song, for me. Nothing moves smoothly - the frequent use of parallel fifths and such throughout make the song sound clunky as a whole. I'm writing a guide on counterpoint (probably won't be finished for another week or two) so I recommend keeping an eye out for that. If you want a piece of the guide that specifically refers to the glaring problem I'm refering to PM me - I'd be glad to help with it. I can't help pointing these things out - I'm a counterpoint stickler .

Onto the production issues...

Alright, the instrument choice is too homogeneous. Nothing sticks out to me as the melody or harmonies - it all sounds like a wall of sound, to me. Not knowing the source shouldn't affect my listening to this as a piece of music - the instrument choice is inherently flawed.

This can be partly remedied through proper mixing, but again there isn't any work done to that area that fixes the problem above. Bring out the melodies by raising and lowering the volumes in the mixer - it'll really help clarify your ideas greatly.

The piano is too artificial sounding. Either get a different instrument or play around with the dynamics. Tweeking the velocity should help the sound dramatically (although I don't know if the velocity is an option is Reaper - you'll need to go to someone else for that information).

The mastering sounds... non-existent. Connect an equalizer to your mixer (if there isn't one there already) and bring up the bass a bit. The treble could use a lift, as well.

Overall, not bad for a first piece, but certainly not close to OC standards (if you submit this it'll probably have the same outcome as my first piece - rejection without further evaluation for production issues and possibly for arrangement issues due to odd notes). That's what it's here for, right? I'm sure we can send you in the right direction, if your willing. I've actually been wondering what your music sounded like, as you've added some incitful information here in the past - now I know .

Oh, and please post the source - it'll help us dramatically in critiquing .

[SoulinEther]

I somewhat recognized the source. It's been a while since I've played any pokemon (this was from Gold/Silver, right? the last games I've owned).

I really don't want to start critiquing though without the source (i'm so lazy lol), and because Gario really did a good job at addressing issues I'd probably kind of bring up (though, lol, parallel fifths probably wouldn't be part of my discussion )

But I use Reaper too so ..... yes, velocity is adjustable in Reaper, when you're in the piano roll editor, beneath the piano roll is that little area that is by default set to adjust velocities. You can just slide those little black bars up and down.

And I'm not sure if it's comparatively good, but Reaper does have its own equalizer, along with its own multiband compressor (ReaEQ and ReaXcomp under the Cockos section of FXs).

And regarding your drums. What sample are you using? I'm not sure of the links anymore, but there is an awesome assortment of good-sounding drums available in the (free, or at least it was) Kore Player, and there's even a free expansion to that player that is free too. They both have a great assortment of samples and synths, considering their cost. And Harmony posted his own free SFZ drum sample pack that sounds very good too. Just explore your options. Your drums might sound better when you've worked on mixing and mastering your piece a bit more. (and actually your kit sounds very similar to what willrock uses in his mixes. hmm.)

[SLyGeN]

A quick word to Gario, this was actually one of my first compositions. If you're curious to hear what some of my newer (and completely original) work is like, it's here. I like to think of the parallel fifths as a single powerful voice, but I see (and kinda already noticed) what you mean.

Adding the counterpoint should be fun. I think my style has improved since the original composition of this piece. I may even make it longer.

Thanks for the input; I agree with everything stated thus far, and will make an effort to work the problems out.

The drums are just a soundfont from Darkesword's page.. it's called tgsf21x, whatever that means. The drums gave me some of the most problems.. I don't have any high-end samples. On top of that, I'm not real experienced with composing drum tracks either.

and Damn, I wish I had remembered to post the source to begin with.. I was quite proud of some of my own added material.

[Gario]

If you want a single, powerful voice I'd recommend octaves or unisons instead (it'll be better using different instruments, though). I'm dead curious, though - what classes are you taking (or have taken) in music theory? I could help point you in a good direction (as in what classes to take, what to listen to and what not, etc.) if your interested...

Ack, and please post the source!!

EDIT: Oops, I didn't see it, thanks!

[SoulinEther]

Ack, and please post the source!!

He did, see the first post.

[SLyGeN]

If you want a single, powerful voice I'd recommend octaves or unisons instead (it'll be better using different instruments, though). I'm dead curious, though - what classes are you taking (or have taken) in music theory? I could help point you in a good direction (as in what classes to take, what to listen to and what not, etc.) if your interested...

Ack, and please post the source!!

Music Theory 1. Typical theory class.

"These are musical modes!"

"This is a seventh chord!"

that was the first semester. Now it's a little more in-depth.. secondary dominant chords and shit.

I think you've gotten the wrong impression from listening to this sucker, though. Seriously, go have a look at the link to my original work.. and have a listen to "Lullaby of the Stillborn" or "The Wise Man's Dement". You might find that my style has evolved since Sprout Procession, which is the second piece of music I've written in my life.

However, you're right. I think I will give Sprout Procession's structure a little bit of an overhaul.

I don't like the idea of pointing me in a specific direction. If your ears want to hear classical music, you're not going to like some of my ideas. My background is metal and industrial electronica. Harmonization and modal variety are relatively minimal.. it's very "horizontal" music. Metal is all power-chords, so if you're a stickler for parallel fifths, your ears are gonna tweak.

But you suggested parallel octaves. That's also looked down upon by 18th century theorists in the same way as parallel fifths, but that's in the context of music for like four different voices. I basically have two voices.. ... maybe I should try adding more.

Overall, not bad for a first piece, but certainly not close to OC standards

I dunno, I've seen some pretty bland stuff, even after lockdown. It gives me confidence, which I figure is a good thing.

[SoulinEther]

I dunno, I've seen some pretty bland stuff, even after lockdown. It gives me confidence, which I figure is a good thing.

Well, still, there was some inherent leniency in those lockdown periods. The bar has been raised higher and higher since then.

Right now I would just say your biggest issue is production. You need to work on a better sounding... sound.

Hang on, I'll listen to your newer works.

edit: I'd say you're capable of producing a better sound. Pay attention to the stereo field though; it seems some of your works seem to be pretty centered.

[LuketheXjesse]

cheap/free gems

Unless you're doing some really insane stuff, you could just keep things this way

The drums are just a soundfont from Darkesword's page.. it's called tgsf21x, whatever that means. The drums gave me some of the most problems.. I don't have any high-end samples. On top of that, I'm not real experienced with composing drum tracks either.

You want some sick drums? GET KORE PLAYER (you will not regret it). Seriously, it's wonderful if you do not want to spend any monies. I could probably get away with using it for a long time before I end up getting Addictive Drums.

I'm glad to see that you're getting into this stuff now Sly! Also Reaper is awesome You could seriously just stick with that forever.

As for the song, the arrangement is really nice and imaginative, it's just a bit quiet. Crank up the volume, and if it clips at a point, throw some compression/limiting on that bad boy and it'll fix. Like Gario said, throw on some EQ as well to make it sound nicer (Reaper comes with ReaEQ and that's pretty good in itself). Anyhoo it's like 1:00 A.M. so I'll give this a much more thorough look through tommorow...

EDIT: I'd also like to throw in that you say you are a DAW n00b? Just toy around with it for a bit. It really doesn't take a long time to get a good feel for things.

[SLyGeN]

Hey Thanks, Luke. I'll take a look at that. I'm downloading it now. It's weird that they would insist on an e-mailed link, though. I guess that's what secondary e-mail accounts are for.

Yeah, I've been messing with Reaper here and there. I'm slowly getting better with it. I'm not sure what all of the jargon means. For example, the velocity isn't the only setting for the piano roll. There are fucking countless options, and I wouldn't have a clue what any of them do.

I need to learn how to make a notes slide, and I also need to learn how to fade notes out, and make them pan in real-time. That's the main thing keeping me from making full use of the stereo.. that mp3 is just monaural.

But anyway, I hope you guys see potential enough to come back and listen to subsequent versions when I post them.

oh, and as far as volume is concerned, I like a lot of dynamic range. The music gets louder later... but I suppose the quiet sections could desensitize the listener enough such that the ending could still appear loud, even if it's the same volume as some other parts.

Music is all just mind-control that's all.

edit: oh, when I referred Gario to my original work, I meant skill from a composition point of view. My processing skill isn't any better now. In fact, the processing part of it happened just today.

[LuketheXjesse]

and I also need to learn how to fade notes out, and make them pan in real-time. That's the main thing keeping me from making full use of the stereo.. that mp3 is just monaural.

I interpreted fading out in two ways. Either fading out the track by clicking on the end of the whole track audio and dragging to the point where you want to start the fade end/out...

...or simply making certain notes quieter than others by clicking on the top of the note bar and pulling down... (see those gray lines???)

oh, and as far as volume is concerned, I like a lot of dynamic range. The music gets louder later... but I suppose the quiet sections could desensitize the listener enough such that the ending could still appear loud, even if it's the same volume as some other parts.

I can understand this, but I remember the loudness sounding more sudden and random instead of gradually building up. Perhaps I was not paying attention. It was 1:00 AM after all.

My processing skill isn't any better now. In fact, the processing part of it happened just today.

This seriously won't take you a whole lot of time to get good at either if you just tinker with it a lot. a month or two at the most. The only hard part is understanding EQing. Unless I forgot something. EDIT: A month or two at the most is assuming you're spending, like, most of your free time on this shit.

[Gario]

But you suggested parallel octaves. That's also looked down upon by 18th century theorists in the same way as parallel fifths, but that's in the context of music for like four different voices.

haHA! I'm glad you caught that (actually, ever since the mid-16th century, to be precise) - but look at what you wanted. You needed a beefier line, not two individual voices.

Here, this is a tiny snippit from the tut I'm writing that goes over this very detail (a very tiny snippit, by the way)...

...Why do I make a big deal about it when I don't complain about the other forbidden rules, here? Unlike [parallel octaves and unisons], if this happens in composition the effect it has on the harmonies is detrimental as the music loses any sort of flow it could have. If it is used to enhance a melodic line more often than not it will clash terribly with the harmonic backdrop, because unike parallel octaves or unisons they are not the same note, and the fifth will bring out-of-the-key notes into the music unless the parallel fifth motion is sometimes replaced with a diminished fifth (which doesn't sound good to double a line with at all).

I understand that a lot of music nowadays use parallel fifths freely (actually, it is required in some music, such as in the power chords of heavy metal). The effect that parallel fifths has on something can be incredibly powerful if a static or clunky effect is desired. In heavy metal the listeners want a chuggy song to bob their heads and mosh to (I can't imagine too much moshing if the music was 'contrapuntally correct'; too many people would be listening)...

I'm actually not talking in strict counterpoint terms, here; octaves will beef out the line better than a fifth because the fifth naturally introduces notes outside of the key area (which makes for some wrong notage, there). I'd use a combination of different instruments if you want to beef it at the unison, though - otherwise you won't really get a change in sound that couldn't be achieved with the mixer settings.

Don't get me wrong - parallel fifths have their uses, but those used here make the music sound worse; octaves and unisons sound betterm there.

But anyway, I hope you guys see potential enough to come back and listen to subsequent versions when I post them.

Don't worry, it isn't a failure (otherwise I would've said 'Better luck next mix'... lol); it has potential, and I want to see it fulfilled .

I don't like the idea of pointing me in a specific direction.

Good point... Actually, I'd do what I did in school and take every single theory and composition course offered in your school and sift through what you know applies to what you want and what doesn't. Hey, all I'd recommend is for you to read my counterpoint thing (when I get the damn thing finished; it's taking a shitload more time than I originally thought) - you'll find out in detail more of what I'm talking about, here.

I'll work hard on it just for you, SLyGeN.

oh, when I referred Gario to my original work, I meant skill from a composition point of view. My processing skill isn't any better now. In fact, the processing part of it happened just today.

Really? I thought you were pointing me out to the production quality... I didn't want to say anything, lol. Did you want feedback on some of that from a compositional view? I'd be more than happy to oblige, but I didn't know that's what you wanted, there.

[SLyGeN]

Oh I know you didn't want to say anything, but I still take the time to read between the lines.

The crits had shifted to the composition of Sprout Procession (rightly so, I will do some serious tweaking), and then related back to my own insight on music theory. So I thought "oh fuck, this guy thinks Sprout is my best compositional work, 'here's a link.' "

Yeah, that was meant simply to let you have a better idea of what the insightful (rivethead/metalhead) composer can compose, not what the shitty sequencer can sequence.

Luke, I don't work with much live instruments since I always run into trouble with their waveform being poorly timed, and there's no clean way to fix that. That, and I don't have access to a studio. Just a cardioid mic..

What I wanted to do was enable fade-out on a single midi note.. for example a guitar is sustaining too long for my liking, but ending the note sooner just cuts it right off.

ALSO

What exactly is the relation between Attack, Decay, Sustain, and Release? Decay and Sustain don't make any audible difference to me. Maybe that's because my attack is always at the bottom? My understanding of it is based to the point where all I know is "Attack needs to be all the way down or it's got no "umph", Decay doesn't do anything, Sustain goes all the way up because its the same as extending a midi note, and Release should be all the way up for pianos but it makes reaper freeze so it goes down a little bit"

Your insight would be appreciated.. hah.

[SoulinEther]

Automation! it's the awesomest thing since sliced bread.

Reaper has pretty good automation support; you can access it from that little "trm" button next to "fx" on any track. If you change Trim/Read to "Write", and click "Arm none", and then manually "arm" a Track envelope or any variable in your instrument, as you play through your piece, you can adjust that variable using the GUI and it will record your adjustments to those settings. You can use this to adjust the volume, panning, etc of your track, or specific parameters of your instrument, like a synth attack/delay, or even effects like reverb, etc. Just make sure that when you're done making the modifications, you set the track back to Touch/Read or just Read, otherwise it'll keep changing the settings. Google Automation in Reaper; that's how i learned about it

edit: you can also manually mess with automation by clicking on the checkbox left of the envelope's name. It should show up in the track display on the right, and you can add nodes and adjust levels... seriously, I can't teach you all this stuff it's too complicated for me to explain... so google! lol.

ALSO

What exactly is the relation between Attack, Decay, Sustain, and Release? Decay and Sustain don't make any audible difference to me. Maybe that's because my attack is always at the bottom? My understanding of it is based to the point where all I know is "Attack needs to be all the way down or it's got no "umph", Decay doesn't do anything, Sustain goes all the way up because its the same as extending a midi note, and Release should be all the way up for pianos but it makes reaper freeze so it goes down a little bit"

Your insight would be appreciated.. hah.

Uhh... actually, this isn't bad: http://www.ocremix.org/info/Zircon's_ReMixing_Tips_Compendium/Part_3:_Synthesizer_Basics#Modulation_Envelope

[LuketheXjesse]

What I wanted to do was enable fade-out on a single midi note.. for example a guitar is sustaining too long for my liking, but ending the note sooner just cuts it right off.

You would probably have to put the midi note in a space by itself. Also if the fade out you have is not working for you, then you do this:

CHOOSE YOUR FADEOUT BEEYOTCH

Click on the white fade out line to choose the fade out you want. Maybe the fade out you choose will help.

Luke, I don't work with much live instruments since I always run into trouble with their waveform being poorly timed, and there's no clean way to fix that. That, and I don't have access to a studio. Just a cardioid mic.

You don't need a studio at all. I record guitar just fine and can make it sound fine without a studio. I don't even know what a studio is. Your computer is your studio unless you're going with analog recording, which requires much more equipment and, well, screw that. I assume your live instruments is guitar of some sort. That's what you get this baby for. It'll set you back $300 if I remember correctly. But hey if you want glorious guitar tone and more then get it. You'll be making sexy guitar music in no time.

I don't exactly know what you mean by "waveform being poorly timed" though. If you mean being, like, off beat, there's a metronome in Reaper you can use...idk.

EDIT: I noticed your profile says you play piano. Do you have a MIDI keyboard? (google image MIDI ports and see if your keyboard has them) The POD I linked up there has midi keyboard capabilities so you can plug in your keyboard to your computer and simply record it that way. No recording with a mic, which is not a good idea to begin with unless the instrument in question is an acoustic guitar.

The crits had shifted to the composition of Sprout Procession (rightly so, I will do some serious tweaking), and then related back to my own insight on music theory. So I thought "oh fuck, this guy thinks Sprout is my best compositional work, 'here's a link.' "

Yeah, that was meant simply to let you have a better idea of what the insightful (rivethead/metalhead) composer can compose, not what the shitty sequencer can sequence.

I honestly don't mind the arrangement that much. Live piano would make it better, but eh you could prolly get away without live piano. Like the others said, there's been no real mastering done here, but I sort of worry about that later anyway. Since there's no live instruments here (which involves getting a good recording or tone), you could go ahead and compose the entire thing and worry about mastering at the end.

[SLyGeN]

Thanks for the suggestion, Luke. It appears to be a pedal of some sort? Something that does on-the-fly processing.. I'll keep it in mind, but money is a little tight right now.

As far as timing problems with waveform, I just meant human error when playing. Of course, the final product of live instruments is raw waveform. Even with metronomes, some error does occur. Hell, maybe it's only from the people I work with. I dunno.

As far as midi keyboards, since I'm working with just midi, I'd prefer to just compose it all out so that real-time isn't a factor.

I know how to make the piano sound much better. That's a product of me being a little lazy, and not understanding the ADSR settings... automation, it's called?

I've got a fair amount of reading to do, though.

SoulinEther, thank you too, that's all very good to know, and will help me out a lot.

One last thing, I'd like a few (cheap?) suggestions for instruments to use for the beginning melody. I could have sworn one of you listed a couple for me to use, but looking through quickly, I can't find it D;

I'd like something a little industrial for the main line.. I was using electric guitar to begin with, but I had nothing that sounded good. Cheap guitar and amp VST's weren't cutting it.. but then I found that brilliant Superwave VST. I wish I knew what all of its settings did!