Silent Hill Discussion

[RazorOutlaw]

His clothing is the same kind PH uses, but Jimmy Stone really isn't the same PH James sees.

[Aetherius]

No, of course not.

But it doesn't really matter. The PH james sees isn't real. Obviosuly there are piles of other Pyramid Heads.

[RazorOutlaw]

What makes you think there are piles of other PHs?

[The Instrument of GAWD]

What makes you think there are piles of other PHs?

Because there were 2 in the same place at the same time, more than likely.

[Aetherius]

Because historical documents said that there was more than one of them.

[RazorOutlaw]

More than one executioner who wore the same outfit PH has, maybe. I don't ever recall reading that more than one Red Pyramid Thing existed.

[CIaude]

Pyramid heads existed in the town's history as executioner. However, they didn't wear the obsidian helmets we're familiar with. They wore triangle shaped hoods. James warped imagination somehow interpreted this and conjured the pyramid head that torments him throughout the game. Also, since the pyarmid head executioner is part of the town and cult's history; it could be plausible that there are still pyramid heads that exist during the time frame of the games.

What I'm trying to say is, despite the fact that the PH that torments James, is of his own creation. It is still possible that there the pyramid head seen in the movie is a different pyramid head; and is merely a visual reference to the towns history and mythology.

The director of the film definately seems to know his shit about the game, and I have faith in his decisions. Besides, (our savior) Akira Yamaoka has given the movie his blessings; and that's more than enough for me.

[Aetherius]

"red pyramid thing" eh?

Well, unless you're going to get into a semantics debate, there are two pyramid heads in the second to last battle in Silent Hill 2. they are described as "red pyramid head" and "white pyramid head" but when I was playing they both looked the same to me, so meh.

I said 'pyramid heads' not 'red pyramid things.'

In my book, Anybody wearing the pyramid helmet/hood = a pyramid head. It's a fixture of the Order's religious heirarchy.

[RazorOutlaw]

Pyramid heads existed in the town's history as executioner. However, they didn't wear the obsidian helmets we're familiar with. They wore triangle shaped hoods. James warped imagination somehow interpreted this and conjured the pyramid head that torments him throughout the game. Also, since the pyarmid head executioner is part of the town and cult's history; it could be plausible that there are still pyramid heads that exist during the time frame of the games.

I am aware that the PH/RPT is part of James's mind, a product of it really, but the game specifies that the executioners were employed during the Civil War while the prison was still a POW camp. Yes, the clothing and the executioners are part of the towns history. They're part of the past. I don't really think the hooded executioners are still used in a mid-90's tourist attraction.

red pyramid thing" eh?

Well, unless you're going to get into a semantics debate, there are two pyramid heads in the second to last battle in Silent Hill 2. they are described as "red pyramid head" and "white pyramid head" but when I was playing they both looked the same to me, so meh.

Indeed, Red Pyramid Thing is the official name of the creature. James's name doesn't really mean much beyond what he had observed, a pet name if you will, whereas the name from The Book of Lost Memories is an official name given to the creature after the game was released. In short "Pyramid Head" is a misnomer in much the same way Imperial Star Destoryer is to Imperator Star Destroyer.

That there are two Pyramid Heads in that last battle is no indication that more exist anywhere else. Due to the fact that much of what James encounters in the game is a reflection of his mind, it is very shakey to conclude that the creatures exist anywhere else for anyone else. For instance, when I tell my friends that my pink rabbit came by with his friend to visit, are they going to conclude that there must be piles of other pink rabbits out there or that I'm just fucking crazy?

I said 'pyramid heads' not 'red pyramid things.'

And that means what exactly? One is a misnomer and the other is the official name. Your definition doesn't exactly mean much to anybody.

In my book, Anybody wearing the pyramid helmet/hood = a pyramid head. It's a fixture of the Order's religious heirarchy.

Well in my book Pyramid Head or Red Pyramind Thing only refers to the creature that appeared to James. Those are the most common names for a specific individual. To me, anything else that wears or looks like PH is referred to as an executioner, a person whom aside from wearing ceremonial execution robes, also wore a helmet during the executions. Technicall y it should be the other way around, and that the creature called Pyramind Head or Red Pyramind Thing looks like the executioners, since one preceeded the other. Also, I don't see how wearing a conical hood equates to being called a pyramid head.

Now there certainly are connections between PH and Valtiel (apparently Valtiel's look is derived from ceremonial robes in the same way Alessa was actually wearing ceremonial robes), and as a result PH has some distant ties to the Cult of Valtiel sect. Yet that doesn't make the creature, or his image, anymore a part of a hierarchy than a priest outfit makes a man a priest.

Basically I see no evidence for the "PHs", as I understand them, to be a fixture of the cult's hierarchy other than that a similar character appeared in a picture next to a guy who also had a weird cross on his face in the Sullivan Victims.

[The Joker]

Fact of the matter is, that Akira Yamoka ultimately has the last say. Seeing as he allowed a PH in the movie, I'd say he thinks of pyramid head as a character of the world, the same way the nurses, the gods, & the main cult characters are.

We could go on & on about evidence, or lack thereof, but I think Akira giving the okay to PH in the movie. That's not even considering all the various, "loose ends" left in the games. They leave it so they can include Pyramid if they felt he fit the game, & not have a contradiction.

[Eccles]

You meet pyramid head 9 times throughout the game. Only two of these instances have more than one PH in the same place at the same time (the hotel and the bottom of the labyrinth).

As for the names...the name in the strategy guide is Red Pyramid Thing. In the DVD that came with the game it's called Triangle Headed Monster.

Also: http://home.comcast.net/~andydthorley/Tick.html

In the game I'm working on there are three Silent Hill references currently...one of 'em is on that page. There's also a painting titled The Silent Hill and there's a skeleton with 21121 on his head.

Hooray!

[Aetherius]

To further confuse things, the book of Lost Memories DOES title the section on PH as "red pyramid thing", but also refers to it as Pyramid Head several times (if I recall correctly...).

The Order of SH4 is BASED on the religions of the older Silent Hill. I'm just making connections. I'll agree that the Pyramid Head in Silent Hill 2 is restricted to James' imagination, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility, that having existed at any time in silent hill's history makes the role of pyramid head/valtiel fair game for appearances to the town's visitors in any form. The Red Devil, of SH4 is to me a representation of the Pyramid Helmet-wearing executioners, and indicative of their role/character in the Order. Obviously they're not the same thing as the PH james sees, and as such, would not have the same 'silent antagonist' kind of stigma.

[The Joker]

Spaking of which, it'd be cool in the next SH to hav a variation of the Pyramid executioner. Like a wall crawling, crazy hangman type of PH variant. MAking all sorts of weird sounds when he's near. That = awesome in my book.

[RazorOutlaw]

Fact of the matter is, that Akira Yamoka ultimately has the last say. Seeing as he allowed a PH in the movie, I'd say he thinks of pyramid head as a character of the world, the same way the nurses, the gods, & the main cult characters are.

We could go on & on about evidence, or lack thereof, but I think Akira giving the okay to PH in the movie. That's not even considering all the various, "loose ends" left in the games. They leave it so they can include Pyramid if they felt he fit the game, & not have a contradiction.

I'm hoping that some explanation will be eventually provided for PH being in the movie, but I don't see the movie going back against the games. The movie, as far as I can tell, has its own continuity.

The Red Devil, of SH4 is to me a representation of the Pyramid Helmet-wearing executioners, and indicative of their role/character in the Order. Obviously they're not the same thing as the PH james sees, and as such, would not have the same 'silent antagonist' kind of stigma.

Warning: Spawlers

The Red Devil is mentioned in both SH2 and SH4, and according to the Sullivan Victims the only character with the nickname "Red Devil" is a certain George Rosten. Do you recall that James read about Walter Sullivan saying "the Red Devil made me do it! It was him! I swear?" Well, some people felt that was PH. But the Sullivan Victims explicity says that George Rosten raised Walter to be a killer. Thus the accusation that it was the "Red Devil" that made him do it points directly to George Rosten.

As for PH appearing to other people, the BoLM specifically states the criteria for how the creature was created. Because of that, I find it highly unlikely that other people would reach the depth of James's feelings of guilt, and make another Pyramid Head for themselves. I just feel that it is dubious that if James could see PH then anybody could see PH, or their deep dirty secret could make it, even though its clothing is an intrinsic part of the town's history. We actually don't have enough information either way, although the fact that there had been trips to SH by other people without a Pyramid Head showing up would indicate even more that the same scenario happening is unlikely.

Of course, being that SH5 will be released some time after the movie there is always the chance that due to pressure to appeal to the masses, Konami could throw in Pyramid Head. That would remove any doubt that James's specific criteria would have to be met in order for the creature to appear.

[Aetherius]

Your first paragraph doesn't actually provide any argument against mine. What he does with walter, I would say is indicative of his role. But like I said, no one IS the PH that James sees. That's not real.

[Bigfoot]

Sorry to hop on this thread without reading any of the previous comments...and this has probably been answered, but..

What's the reason behind the mother being the main character and not the father being the person who's looking for his daughter? At first I thought the movie was maybe leading into the first Silent Hill game, cause he was told by his wife to meet him at their spot. But then I remember the part where they wreck in the jeep. In the game it was the guy driving(can't even think of his name off the top of my head ) and not the woman.

[Sentora]

My two cents on the Pyramid Head movie debate.

I have no problem with ol' pointy showing up, because it hints that one of the characters could have a secret that'll shock the hell out of us much like James did. Personally, my bets are on Cybil, since we honestly know little to nothing about her save for what that japanese game revealed about her.

Or it could just be a cameo that makes us fanboys and fangirls squeal, hinting that James' story is occuring at the same time. That body he's dragging does seem similar to Maria...

[Aetherius]

Sorry to hop on this thread without reading any of the previous comments...and this has probably been answered, but..

What's the reason behind the mother being the main character and not the father being the person who's looking for his daughter? At first I thought the movie was maybe leading into the first Silent Hill game, cause he was told by his wife to meet him at their spot. But then I remember the part where they wreck in the jeep. In the game it was the guy driving(can't even think of his name off the top of my head ) and not the woman.

Well, first off, you've got the plot of silent Hill 2 confused with the plot of the first game. Harry's wife sends him no letters.

Also, according to Chris Gans:

"I think when Roger Avary and Nickolas Boukhrief and I started to work on the project we assumed, because we are all fans of the game, that we would start writing with Harry Mason as our lead.

It quickly became clear however Harry never acted like a masculine character. He was constantly dizzy, fainting, talking to himself, screaming and in fact was very vulnerable. We didn't want to betray the nature of the game by changing the character's feelings and motivations, so we felt it was better to change to a female protagonist and retain all those important qualities. I don't want people to think that I have been "politically correct" because we changed Harry into Rose. There is no political correctness in Silent Hill.

It's important to mention that we were conscious that allowing the Gamers to have to face a new character would help in the transition from Silent Hill the Game to Silent Hill the Movie."

You can read info like this on Gans' Blog.

http://www.sonypictures.com/movies/silenthill/productiondiary/index.php

[Bigfoot]

Sorry to hop on this thread without reading any of the previous comments...and this has probably been answered, but..

What's the reason behind the mother being the main character and not the father being the person who's looking for his daughter? At first I thought the movie was maybe leading into the first Silent Hill game, cause he was told by his wife to meet him at their spot. But then I remember the part where they wreck in the jeep. In the game it was the guy driving(can't even think of his name off the top of my head ) and not the woman.

Well, first off, you've got the plot of silent Hill 2 confused with the plot of the first game. Harry's wife sends him no letters.

Also, according to Chris Gans:

"I think when Roger Avary and Nickolas Boukhrief and I started to work on the project we assumed, because we are all fans of the game, that we would start writing with Harry Mason as our lead.

It quickly became clear however Harry never acted like a masculine character. He was constantly dizzy, fainting, talking to himself, screaming and in fact was very vulnerable. We didn't want to betray the nature of the game by changing the character's feelings and motivations, so we felt it was better to change to a female protagonist and retain all those important qualities. I don't want people to think that I have been "politically correct" because we changed Harry into Rose. There is no political correctness in Silent Hill.

It's important to mention that we were conscious that allowing the Gamers to have to face a new character would help in the transition from Silent Hill the Game to Silent Hill the Movie."

You can read info like this on Gans' Blog.

http://www.sonypictures.com/movies/silenthill/productiondiary/index.php

Ah ok, cool. Thanks for clearing that up.

And yeah haha, I didn't get the two mixed up, oops. It's been forever since I've played Silent Hill titles.

[UnforgivingEdges]

Europeans rejoice

[RazorOutlaw]

Your first paragraph doesn't actually provide any argument against mine. What he does with walter, I would say is indicative of his role. But like I said, no one IS the PH that James sees. That's not real.

You said that the "Red Devil" of SH4 is a representation of the helmet wearing executioners, and that this indicates their role in the order. First, The Sullivan Victim files give spotty information at best, being that they only tell you that this George Rosten manipulated Walter. Whether this manipulation was ritual, or if he did it for personal gain, we don't know. Second, Red Devil is a nickname and not a representation of the cult’s inner workings. Next, we don't even know if the executioners were part of the cult's priestly hierarchy, we've only got people wearing conical hoods which look similar to the pyramid helmet worn by the executioners. The similarities aren’t enough to draw a conclusion. The helmets worn by the executioners were just something they did, and even if they did wear the helmets for religious reasons, there is still no evidence for a connection between the priests and the executioners at all. No such thing is described anywhere in the books or games.

But since you're saying that the particular type of priest, this "Red Devil", was is a representation of the helmet wearing executioners, exactly where do you get this information? At what point in what book, or even in the game, do they say that the priests are derived from the executioners?

[The Joker]

Every fan of Silent Hill knows the creatures have been conceived by a child at least in the first game. They are the creation of Alessa's mind. They embody a strange, naïve, candid sense of cruelty that only a child can have. They are more like broken dolls than horrible creatures.

I gott hat bit whilst reading the poduction diary (I'm sick with a bug & bored!). Anyway, it is entirely plausible that PH in this movie was a representation of the boogy man. Almost the same way as Walter saw the Red Devil when he was growing up. James saw a PH as a reflection of what he was, a boogey man type that killed his wife.

Thus, it is plausible that he exists as a Silent Hill archetype of a boogey man.

[ifirit]

You said that the "Red Devil" of SH4 is a representation of the helmet wearing executioners, and that this indicates their role in the order. First, The Sullivan Victim files give spotty information at best, being that they only tell you that this George Rosten manipulated Walter. Whether this manipulation was ritual, or if he did it for personal gain, we don't know. Second, Red Devil is a nickname and not a representation of the cult’s inner workings. Next, we don't even know if the executioners were part of the cult's priestly hierarchy, we've only got people wearing conical hoods which look similar to the pyramid helmet worn by the executioners. The similarities aren’t enough to draw a conclusion. The helmets worn by the executioners were just something they did, and even if they did wear the helmets for religious reasons, there is still no evidence for a connection between the priests and the executioners at all. No such thing is described anywhere in the books or games.

But since you're saying that the particular type of priest, this "Red Devil", was is a representation of the helmet wearing executioners, exactly where do you get this information? At what point in what book, or even in the game, do they say that the priests are derived from the executioners?

Being that you made the point to differentiate the separation of the history of the town from the religion of the town, I don't feel that you've made the point clear about the distinction between the Red Pyramid Thing (monster), the executioners of Toluca Prison, and the clothing worn by Jimmy Stone (a priest of the cult of Silent Hill). Therefore, I'll try to elaborate and clarify these distinctions.

Let's look at this chronologically. First, in the 1860's at the Toluca prison camp and later prison, those executed in the prison were done so by men dressed with an executioner's hood, which historically (Western civilization), looks triangular/conic though is often black in color. No documentation was made as to the exact description of the executioner's clothing at the Toluca Prison Camp, but it was assumed to be particularly distinct from those of tradition. This is not to say that the clothing looked like that of the Red Pyramid Thing, but that the clothing was different enough from what is traditionally worn for the artist to make note of it in his painting: Misty day, remains of the Judgement. (Please note that the painting reflects the image of the Red Pyramid Thing as it appears in the game, not within the history of the town. It is speculated that the image could have been either an artist interpretation, an extention of James' delusion, or a distortion of reality caused by the power of the town.) The red color of the hood associated by the cult and by players may have been due to blood covering the executioners. From the information written on the "Blood Swamp" monument, it is stated that large quantities of blood were emptied into the swamp from the executioners' cleaning themselves and their tools, suggesting that there was enough to stain the water red. This may imply that their clothing was also covered with blood, escpecially when one considers the methods of execution. As such, the mythos of the executioners wearing red hoods and dirty aprons extends from a distorted view of what they looked like before washing themselves off. This appearance would have been important to the followers of the religion of Silent Hill as many of those executed were practitioners.

Second, as a result of the witch hunts in the 17th century, yet re-emphasized after the Civil War, the religion of Silent Hill entered another quiet period in its history, where the followers practised in secret and developed their faith around Christian beliefs as to assimilate within normal society. During this period, the cult of Silent Hill is created, where the beliefs of old religion (which was poly-lithic, believing in multiple gods and spirits) were merged with Christianity (a monolithic faith, believing in a single onmipotent being). The cult thus created new forms for the older gods and spirits as angels and heavenly beings governed under a single god. The cult replaced many of its rituals (many containing blood rites such as blood-letting and human sacrifice) with prayers and ceremonies, but continued to maintain the important ones which involve the three traditional ceremonial items: obsidian goblet, white chism/oil, and the cult's bible. Because of this assimilation of Christian beliefs, many of the blood rites used in the ceremonies of the previous religion fell out of practice, but were still documented to remind the followers of the blood-stained past. In this era, the robes worn by the cult of Silent Hill (those aprons seen in SH1) were created as part of the new system of faith. Their appearance was not to be considered hostile or demonic, though their origins suggest so. As such the aprons were meant to hold holy significance within the cult and be representative of status among its members. As such, the appearance of many angels and heavenly beings are shown to wear such robes, i.e. Vatiel (SH3), the hung bodies (SH1), the Red Pyramid Thing (SH2), etc.

Third, after Dahlia's attempt to bring god into the world, many of the previously un/under-used blood rituals were reintroduced to the cult because of their extremely powerful ability to bring about results. It is assumed that this helped to spur stories and rumors about the cult that inspired fear among the citizens of Silent Hill and passing tourists. These stories and rumors also helped to spark new interest in the town's history among tourists, which included the attrocities of the Toluca Prison and Prison Camp, though its documentation had been kept since the 1910's. It's likely that the image of a priest of the cult of Silent Hill (wearing the traditional apron and purely ceremonial red hood with a cross) performing a blood ritual, like human sacrifice, was juxtaposed with the historical recants of the Toluca Prison's staff resulting in a distortion of its original appearance. This distortion is probably the source of James' manifeastation of his personal executioner. So, please note that the ceremonial robes of the priests of the cult of Silent Hill do contain references to the executioners of Toluca Prison, but that their relevence within the cult and the history of Silent Hill reflect a nature of holiness and spirituality, not vengence or a sense of judgement against the wicked. In other words, the priests of the cult of Silent Hill do not assume roles as executioners (while wearing their robes) meant to strike down the wicked, but as people who hold a spirituality within them trying to become further holy, despite the fact that the means include performing blood rites with other people. It's a very fine and subtle distinction to make, but if you exclude the use of human blood as part of the ceremonies, the differences become profound.

I gott hat bit whilst reading the poduction diary (I'm sick with a bug & bored!). Anyway, it is entirely plausible that PH in this movie was a representation of the boogy man. Almost the same way as Walter saw the Red Devil when he was growing up. James saw a PH as a reflection of what he was, a boogey man type that killed his wife.

Thus, it is plausible that he exists as a Silent Hill archetype of a boogey man.

Having explained my point, I feel a need to extend my discussion to consider the appearance of the Red Pyramid Thing (officially titled "Red Pyramid" for the film) if whether or not its presence contradicts the representation within the mythos of the games, or if it considers the subject thoughtfully.

The presense of the Red Pyramid in the film based on presence alone is not contradictive to the storyline from the games if one considers that its form represents that of the priests of the cult of Silent Hill or of angels of god. Because the clothing worn by the priests of the cult is a symbol of their devotion to their faith, the Red Pyramid should represent a being of divine intervention. However, if Alessa were to fear the priests of the cult or the agents of god, then the Red Pyramid would hold no greater presence within the world than any other monster; I'd consider it on par with a puppet doctor or puppet nurse. Yet, according to certain theories about the RP based on the WonderCon footage, it is speculated that it plays a bigger role in the film and acts as an agent under Dahlia's command. This form does contradict the mythos of the series, because it gives a person without possession of the town's power the ability to control "heavenly" beings. As such, assuming that the writers knew this, the RP cannot act under Dahlia's control, but Alessa's. Therefore, Alessa is likely to be using the agent of god to obtain some sort of goal; my guess being that the Red Pyramid acts as the physical manifeastation of the "Mark of Samael" or "Seal of Metatron." The Red Pyramid thus would appear at various points in the film to complete one section of the ceremony. Though I am assuming that the Seal of Metatron is used to escape from Dahlia, I cannot adhere to such a theory unless it is explained in the film.

As such, the Red Pyramid's violent actions would have to be tied to the blood rites of the religion of Silent Hill, being that it is a part of the ceremony for the "Seal of Metatron." To assume that the Red Pyramid continues to represent an executioner in this context would, beyond all shadow of a doubt, contradict the mythos of the series. Realizing this, I understand now what will make or break the success of the film's story, which when considered seems fairly obvious: the role of the Red Pyramid in the film. To be represented as an executioner and Id-like figure would be a direct contradiction to the series and hamper the rest of the story's development as a film.

Silent Hill Film Update:

Silent Hill Television Promotions:

Although I am not aware of the official first running of the television promotion for the film, as of 12:49am on Thusrday, March 30, 2006, I witnessed the appearance of the Silent Hill trailer on television on MTV. The television promotion showed the official theatrical trailer almost in its entirety, only to allot for time between commercials. The beginning was editted to quickly explain the backstory within 30 secs, and proceeded to return to normal pace after Rose's entry to the "other side." Considering that the commercial ran for almost two minutes, it was very risky and likely very costly to due so. Still, the point is that television promotions for the film are now underway, indicating that the opening is not too far away. (w00t!)

[RazorOutlaw]

You know what, the entire discussion so-far has been a clusterfuck. I completely misunderstood you Aetherius, and wasn't willing to admit that I misunderstood you in the first place. I did forget that both Valtiel and PH wore the same clothing, basically, which in turn were used as religious vestments for the priests.

Of course, leave it to ifirit to hand out the smackdowns. Not that I'm complaining, but damn. :/

[UnforgivingEdges]

Realizing this, I understand now what will make or break the success of the film's story, which when considered seems fairly obvious: the role of the Red Pyramid in the film.

Or you know, success could depend on the quality of filmmaking combined with the fact that the world is actually getting a movie based on the Silent Hill games.

You're the type of person, with your cockamamey theories and shit, that will never allow the movie to be enjoyed because the filmmaker might not have made the film that fits with your arduous and drawn-out vision of the game.

Just enjoy the fact that Silent Hill fans are getting a movie at all, and don't peg success of the movie on all these BS notions that a handful of hardcore fans may subscribe to.