help me tame that bass!

[Chimpazilla]

Hi everyone, I think I have my leads under control... time for the next question... I'm finding that my lower end is an ill-defined mess! What are your suggestions for getting nice tight bass with a nice punchy attack sound? Is compression the weapon of choice, and if so what settings work well? Thanks again guys.

[Meteo Xavier]

I thought you were going to teach us how to do it.

Do you have any examples to post? We won't know what to do with it until we hear it.

[Chimpazilla]

Oops, sorry! I changed the title.

Here is eight seconds of bass. Thanks for any help!

[dannthr]

Side-chaining?

[Chimpazilla]

I've already sidechained with my kick. This sample is compressed already, 10:1 threshold of -30db with an attack of 15ms and release of 400ms. I'm thinking these settings are wrong. Eq settings are steep hp at 60hz, 6db cut at 200, and slight bump at 4khz for click. Maybe I just need to replace this sample?

[Moseph]

Example link doesn't work for me.

[Chimpazilla]

My bad. I forgot to make it the "secret link." Should work now.

I'm thinking maybe I can layer two basses, this one and one with a better attack?

secret link

[Darangen]

Make sure you're rolling the bass of everything else (except the kick) to help make sure the bass punches through.

The way I make a bass punchy is lining it up with the kick so you get the beater from the kick popping and the bass booming at the same time. Doesn't work in all styles of music though.

Do you have a sample of it with some other instruments?

[Moseph]

If you're looking for a more distinct attack, a 15ms attack on the compressor is too fast. Dial that up a bit and you should hear the bass's attack start to come out before the compressor clamps down on it.

[Frederic Petitpas]

Didn't listen or whatever but I've seen your "60Hz hp". I'd lower that to 30 then tame the kick around 50Hz.

[Chimpazilla]

Do you have a sample of it with some other instruments?

I have a sample of it with all the instruments... I'm planning to post it in the wip forum fairly soon.

If you're looking for a more distinct attack, a 15ms attack on the compressor is too fast. Dial that up a bit and you should hear the bass's attack start to come out before the compressor clamps down on it.

Great, thanks. What about the release? Long or short?

Didn't listen or whatever but I've seen your "60Hz hp". I'd lower that to 30 then tame the kick around 50Hz.

OK great, will try that too.

[Rozovian]

Here's my process... I think.

Solo the kick and bass and make them work together. Figure out whether the kick or the bass should be the lowest of the two, and give that one a bit of a boost around 80Hz and a cut around 160Hz, do the opposite to the other.

Use compression and sidechaining to get more impact or whatever else. Get the kick and bass to play well together.

Then start bringing in the other tracks, cutting out the lows they don't need, and sidechaining those that do need lows (like low riffs or pads). The snare might be the trickiest here, as it'll either need to dodge the kick or to have an impact of its own. It will have lows you can safely cut, but it'll lose impact if you take out too much.

If you have a good waveform viewer to keep track of peaks, use it early in this process to know how your instruments interact. Seeing how loud the transient is, how much the sidechaining actually pushes the bass out of the way etc helps a lot.

I often use some light multiband compression on my tracks, something I usually add fairly late in the process just to keep each band from getting too loud on its own. It also serves as an output EQ, for some final balancing of the track. While the other bands are typically only gently compressed, the lows often have a much higher compression ratio. This lets me have a lot more bass without worrying about the really bassy parts getting too loud. This might not be the wisest approach, so use with caution.

-

As for your example, I'd sweep around in the lows, trying to find a good frequency range to boost... and boost that. With a bass this low, I'd probably use overdrive or something to make sure the low notes have some loud harmonics to work with. Overdrive before EQ, here. I'd also give it a boost somewhere further up, in some empty niche in the mix, just to make sure there's some higher harmonics there for ppl to hear what note the bass actually plays.

It's not a great bass sound, I don't know if I'd use this sample/synth patch. I typically use synths where Ive got more control over their sound. That way, I can make it really velocity-sensitive, eg so the filter opens more on loud notes but the amplitude (volume) is the same... if I want it to be.

Again, that attack ADSR thing I mentioned in the other thread could come in useful here. That, plus overdrive, plus EQ, plus compression is what I think I'd do if I had to work with this sound.

[Chimpazilla]

Thanks Rozo, as usual, for your extensive and helpful post!

I have spent most of the morning on this, and come up with almost nothing. I did the eq boosts/cuts to kick/bass as you suggested and that helps somewhat. Added some overdrive, yeah that's nice too. I've worked with the sidechaining as well as regular compression, and again, a slight help. I tried (and tried and tried) replacing this synth, and/or layering it with something else, bus compressing etc., and that was a dead end. This (the sample I posted) is the sound that the song requires. But I'm just not getting that "bump" that I want. It's too loose.

I've eq'd everything else to not play below 200Hz so muddiness really isn't the issue. It's the lack of definition in this bass sound, no punch. It is a Sytrus preset that doesn't use a global adsr envelope, and I've tried tweaking every parameter in there, only to reload the preset and start from scratch. Gggggrrrrr. I know the sample I posted sounds weird and weak on it's own, but it works in the song. It just needs to, somehow, PUNCH. How. Hhhhmmm. Blah.

[Darangen]

Try sliding the bass a few milliseconds after the kick hits, sometimes that helps it stick out a bit apart from the kick. Close enough so that it still sounds tight, but far enough apart where they each get their own distinct sound out.

How devoted are you to this bass sample? Have you tried others? Tried layering two or more different samples together?

[Chimpazilla]

Try sliding the bass a few milliseconds after the kick hits, sometimes that helps it stick out a bit apart from the kick. Close enough so that it still sounds tight, but far enough apart where they each get their own distinct sound out.

How devoted are you to this bass sample? Have you tried others? Tried layering two or more different samples together?

That would be hard to do as the kick pattern is complex and changes all through the song.

I spent the entire morning trying to replace or layer the sample. Nothing sounds as good.

[Darangen]

Whenever I want a punchy bass, the only thing that seems to do it for me is lining it up with the kick :/

Do you have a song we could listen to that would give us an idea of the sound you're wanting to achieve? That might help others figure out where you're trying to end up and help you get there.

[Chimpazilla]

Do you have a song we could listen to that would give us an idea of the sound you're wanting to achieve? That might help others figure out where you're trying to end up and help you get there.

I love the low end in this song: So Will Be Now The main bass in the song is a springy-boingy sound, that's not what I want, but I want my low bass sound to behave in a similar way. The bass in the song sort of bounces and sounds so cool. My bass is a Sytrus (FL) preset that does not utilize global adsr parameters and I don't know what I can tweak to get it to do anything like this. It seems like if I could get the decay down somewhat I would be on my way.

[Rozovian]

Can't say without testing and not gonna to that at 2 am, but here's a thought on adding punch:

Compressor. Set threshold and ratio so you compress the bass at least 4dB. Set attack to 200ms or so, release to 10ms or something else short. Depending on how your compressor behaves, you may have to specify that it should track peak level, not rms. Logic's built-in standard mode let me select which of these it tracks. Its other modes includes Opto, which would be my second choice - tho I'm not an expert on compressor modes and types and whatnot.

This will remodel the dynamics of the sound, making sure each separate enough note has a 200ms decay to 4dB (or whatever you set) below its max level.

Dunno whether it'll go better before or after the other two effects. I don't think it's position in regards to the EQ matters much, but it should be more dynamic after the overdrive (its amplitude/volume changing more between attack and sustain), and provide a brighter attack if placed before the overdrive (louder attack sent into the overdrive, which means more distortion on the attack, which means more harmonics, which means brighter and more clear attack).

And nothing says you can't use two compressors.

[Meteo Xavier]

Wouldn't using two compressors create overcompression?

[Darangen]

Not really, I've seen a lot of studio engineers use multiple compressors and limiters to get the sound they wanted.

Whether it's more beneficial than just using one more aggressively is beyond my comprehension.

[Meteo Xavier]

I tend to get a shitload of overcompressing when I use more than one.

[zircon]

How can you make that bass sound good?

* Write higher notes. Your notes are too low.

* Use something with higher harmonics. The synth sound should naturally have more mid and high end. I don't know how much you know about synthesis; I'd describe further if you're proficient at it. In short, you need to simply use a better sound.

* Use something with more dynamics/movement in the sound. This is done via envelopes. The song you linked with the 'bouncing bass' has both an amplitude envelope (louder when it first hits, gets softer and does not sustain) as well as a filter cutoff envelope (aggressive, resonant, buzzy high frequencies at the start of each note, which quickly fade away and are cut off.)

* Focus on these things before doing EQ, compression, etc. Trust me. You don't need to focus on that, you need a better sound.

[Chimpazilla]

Thanks so much guys for really trying to help me with this!

OK so double compression didn't work, eek that sounded terrible. One compressor is enough. I was frustrated enough to create a detailed volume automation which seems to have given the sound more bounce. Yes, I'm forcing what should have been accomplished with an envelope within the synth... but whatever works.

I know the sound is terrible on its own. I hated posting it. But when I finally put the song in the wip forum, you'll hear why I picked this timbre and why it works. If it doesn't work within the context of the song, you can tell me then and I'll consider replacing it.

Thanks everyone. Damn, why does low end have to be such a bitch??? (I know... because the payoff is soooo sweet when it is done right)

[SnappleMan]

Just find the sweet spot using EQ and boost it. Also take down your tracks as they're going into the master fader to give the mix more headroom, the bass will come out much cleaner then. And also use distortion. Slight distortion will really make the bass stand out, you just have to make sure that you either use a distortion with a rolled off top end or if not just roll it off yourself, and then mix it in to taste while listening to the complete mix until it sounds present enough for you. There's nothing wrong with your sample.

[avaris]

Layering will probably be easier for you at this point than getting into too much EQ and Compression. Here's a good tutorial to start off with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC5Wev0OyJ4&feature=player_embedded

Zircon is right about the sound choice. Try 2 basses, a high and low. Put some distortion on the high bass. It should help fill things out. (as Snappleman said slight distortion can do wonders for a bass)