Shadow Hunters (Metroid)

[antiPLUR]

http://soundcloud.com/aaron-dictor/shadow-hunters-metroid-remix

Tracks sourced:

"Credits" (Metroid Prime: Hunters)

"Phendrana Drifts" (Metroid Prime)

"Title Screen" (Metroid Prime: Echoes)

The intro was inspired by the intro to super metroid

feedback/comments/criticisms welcome and appreciated

Edited June 26, 2013 by antiPLUR

[tesselode]

Let me start off by saying I'm not familiar with the source material. I gave it a quick listen before I listened to your remix, but I'm afraid I can't really comment on how well you used the sources.

One quick mixing complaint: I feel like the whole song lacks low-end. The kicks could be a lot more thumpy.

Anyway, I like the sound of the song, and the production quality is high, but I feel like the song isn't really going anywhere. The difference between the soft parts and the loud parts (with the drums) is quite jarring, but more importantly, there isn't a clear path the song is taking. There's no climactic moments, there's no building, etc. That's the one thing I would say this remix is lacking right now.

[antiPLUR]

Thank you for the feedback. I took your advice and gave the kicks a bit more thump in the low end:). As for the jarring part I must ask, do you listen to this genre often? It is quite characteristic of this type of Breaks and other "bass music" to have what is called a "drop", or sudden explosion of sound, then a "breakdown" (or mellow part) and then another "drop". Forgive me if I sound patronizing, that is not my intent; I just want to make sure you arent being put off by the genre rather than my composition. If this is not what you were referring to, please elaborate. Its really nice to get feedback from an objective, unbiased community that actually knows what they are talking about rather than people I know who just say "sounds good bro"

[antiPLUR]

Just a quick update: Kicks are now more thumpy. Transitions are now slightly more dramatic. Climax is now more apparent. Status changed to finished. If there are no further criticisms I will submit it. Thank you to those who left feedback. (The original link should still be good but here it is again http://soundcloud.com/aaron-dictor/shadow-hunters-metroid-remix)

[timaeus222]

0:41 sine-like wave is too resonant.

0:55 - where's the cymbal?

Dunno why, but the snare sounds wide to me. Should be panned center. Check the mix's low end some more. Still a little iffy.

2:30 snare delay is too much. Try using 2:18's snare delay feedback level at 2:30 and removing it at 2:18.

2:44 lead is same as before, and washed in reverb. Makes low end muddy. It's most obvious at 3:14 that it's cluttered spatially and frequency-wise.

Snare overall is a little dry.

[antiPLUR]

@timaeus222

Good ear!

Low passed the lead so it should sound less resonant

Not sure what you meant by the "cymbal". I think you may be referring to the pitched metallic "CHEE CHUU" noise which sounds a bit like a cymbal. It was that way in the source material (credits to Metroid Prime: Hunters) and I kinda liked it so I recreated it using a noise oscillator and a filter. Let me know if its something else.

Snare was wider than it should have been; changed it to mono.

Snare delay is the same at 2:18 and 2:30 so having trouble isolating that one.

Added some reverb to the snare (while keeping it Mono)

Tried to clear up some of the clutter by removing an unnecessary/redundant part at the end

As for checking the low end, is there a way I can do that with a spectral analyzer? I don't currently have a sub-woofer. Am I looking for phase cancellation? My sub bass and kick should be the only things down there and the sub bass is side chained to the kick and snare.

The revised version can be found at the same link: http://soundcloud.com/aaron-dictor/shadow-hunters-metroid-remix

Thanks very much for your detailed feedback!

[timaeus222]

@timaeus222

Good ear!

Low passed the lead so it should sound less resonant

Not sure what you meant by the "cymbal". I think you may be referring to the pitched metallic "CHEE CHUU" noise which sounds a bit like a cymbal. It was that way in the source material (credits to Metroid Prime: Hunters) and I kinda liked it so I recreated it using a noise oscillator and a filter. Let me know if its something else.

Snare was wider than it should have been; changed it to mono.

Snare delay is the same at 2:18 and 2:30 so having trouble isolating that one.

Added some reverb to the snare (while keeping it Mono)

Tried to clear up some of the clutter by removing an unnecessary/redundant part at the end

As for checking the low end, is there a way I can do that with a spectral analyzer? I don't currently have a sub-woofer. Am I looking for phase cancellation? My sub bass and kick should be the only things down there and the sub bass is side chained to the kick and snare.

The revised version can be found at the same link: http://soundcloud.com/aaron-dictor/shadow-hunters-metroid-remix

Thanks very much for your detailed feedback!

Hm, you shouldn't have to simply low pass the lead like that. Isn't there a resonance knob in your synth? If you just low pass it, you take out the higher frequencies that help it to pierce through. If it's resonant, then it's boosted too much in one particular frequency range, but it moves with the current note being played (i.e. it's a keytracked/keyfollowed, internal EQ issue), so to lessen it, you'll have to turn down a resonance knob in your synth that should exist (it's a relatively common knob).

I mean an actual, typical cymbal. I didn't really hear anything resembling a cymbal connecting those sections.

Weird, it sounds a little bit different at 2:30. Did you add something else that also has delay, or change the snare velocities or sequencing?

I don't know what DAW you're using (it's not in your profile at the moment), but do you happen to have an EQ that lets you see the frequencies that your instruments are occupying? Something like this (ignore the oval)?

Wait a minute, are you sure you said that right? You said "the sub bass is side chained to the kick and snare." It should be the other way around, as the kick should be heard over the bass. It's also not entirely necessary to sidechain the snare to the bass. You could just do a peaking EQ at the snare fundamental (200~300Hz or so) and a notch EQ in the bass where the snare fundamental is. That should make some room; you could also try that with the kick.

Another solution or additional thing you can do is pan the effects you have a little wider using ping pong delay that has particular delay times. If you make it so you can't hear the distinct echoes by speeding up the delay times to a certain extent, then it'll sound wider without sounding like actual delay. That should help with, for example, your wub-like bass at 3:13.

Edited June 26, 2013 by timaeus222

[antiPLUR]

The lead is a Sine wave with an LFO modulating the amplitude to create an eerie vibrato effect. There was no filter being used initially so there shouldn't have been any resonance afaik. I did hear the annoying resonance like effect though, and when I low passed it the effect went away. It may have been something in the reverb, although the reverb comes after the filter and as I understand it a sine wave consists of a fundamental with no harmonics. Spooky indeed.

I will try turning up the velocity on the cymbal. I hear it but maybe thats because having written the part I know where to look (listen?)

at 2:30 there are some Toms added that also have delay. I like the effect but perhaps it is too much.

I am using Ableton LIVE. I have a spectral analyzer called "Spectrum" although it is not tied into the EQ. I must admit that I am a little jealous of that FLStudio EQ that ties both together I found LIVE's workflow to be more intuitive so that's what I use for production but as with anything it has its ups and downs.

Also you are correct about the side chaining. I often say it in reverse because of the method used in Ableton LIVE to implement sidechain compression. Regardless, the result is that the sub bass ducks out of the way when the Kick hits. I will try the notching method and see if that yields better results for the snare; the kick is awfully sub-y at this point and I fear that notching will destroy my sub bass entirely but I will look into that as well. I am headed to bed atm but I will definitely attempt to implement your suggestions when I wake up.

[antiPLUR]

One more thing Timaus222: regarding your stereo widening trick. I have heard of this effect before but I never use it. I try to check my mixes in mono and pay attention to phasing issues. I also have a plugin that will check stereo field and phasing. If I set the right delay to 1ms and the left to 10ms and the wetness to 100% I do indeed get a widened stereo effect, but the instrument reads as out of phase. Is this ok? if not what can I do to combat it or what am I doing wrong?

[timaeus222]

One more thing Timaeus222: regarding your stereo widening trick. I have heard of this effect before but I never use it. I try to check my mixes in mono and pay attention to phasing issues. I also have a plugin that will check stereo field and phasing. If I set the right delay to 1ms and the left to 10ms and the wetness to 100% I do indeed get a widened stereo effect, but the instrument reads as out of phase. Is this ok? if not what can I do to combat it or what am I doing wrong?

My belief is that if the end result sounds good, then the song is good. Even if your instrument reads as out of phase, the overall phase cancellation result would be pretty complex, so if it still sounds right overall, don't worry about it. I've never actually had any noticeable issues when I do wide panning. It's actually helped tremendously with my sound clarity and distinctness. (Just in case you're a little skeptical, you can try looking at my soundcloud if you want to)

Edited June 26, 2013 by timaeus222

[tesselode]

This is actually sounding a lot better than the first version you posted. The transitions are a lot better, although that last one at 3:13 still doesn't quite work.

The song is sounding pretty good now, but it's not particularly impressive. There's nothing that would make me say "wow." I think one thing that would help is making the high sine wave instrument louder, especially at 2:44, as that is your melody right there. See how that works for you.

[antiPLUR]

@Timaeus222 I think I resolved all of the issues you mentioned (took all morning *whew*). I removed all of the EQs and compressors and redid them. In short there is a lot more EQing and a lot less side chaining. I went down the list you made and resolved the other issues as well. It should sound a lot cleaner. Thanks for your suggestions.

@Tesselode I agree there is something off about the transition you mentioned. Its like the track isn't powerful enough after that pause. I will see what I can do. In the meantime the sine should be more prominent as I increased the volume. I don't want it to overshadow the Phendrana theme that continues from the previous section though so it may not be as loud as you might expect.

I'm changing the status back to WIP as there are obviously more issues present than I had initially been aware of

http://soundcloud.com/aaron-dictor/shadow-hunters-metroid-remix

[Chimpazilla]

It is still a good idea to check the mono-compatibility of your mixes, even if they sound awesome in stereo but have phase cancellation issues. It's just good practice. If your mix is ever played in mono (like in a club, but more likely on a bad system or even directly out of an iPod), some of you instrumentation may go away completely. Check this, and see if you are ok with what's left in mono. If you're not happy with that, I'd go back and check your instruments individually to see if there is another, less "phase-cancelly" way to get the wide sound you're after.

[antiPLUR]

@Chimpazilla Yes that makes a lot of sense. I did check this mix after I tried Timaeus222's widening method and it does seem to sound acceptable in Mono. Of course in mono the whole mix feels a lot less "Spacey" which in my opinion defeats the point of a Metroid mix is there any way to get that "space" in a mono mix? Like I said it sounds acceptable as in I can hear all of the parts and whatnot but it doesn't feel as "big". I suppose in a club there would be a sort of pseudo Haas effect because the speakers would all be a different proximity from the listener. Anyway I've been producing for a while and yet I feel like I've learned so much in this thread. This is a really cool community; thank you everyone who responded.

[Chimpazilla]

It will never sound as good in mono! I have no idea what they do on club systems to make it sound good! (it does, though!) My point was just to check the mix in mono to make sure most of your instrumentation is still there (and doesn't completely cancel out). Most people will play your mix on a stereo system, anyway. But for that occasional "straight out of the iPod" play, at least the entire song will be heard.

I'm in no way suggesting you mix your song in mono!!! (yikes, haha)

[michael-collins]

I guess the link isn't working anymore. But I listened to your starfox thing and that KILLED IT

[antiPLUR]

LOL thanks michael that was a song I wrote for joke for a set that I was doing. Its not a remix per se but it does use starfox sounds as samples. I haven't been getting updates to my email about when people are posting something must be wrong with my settings. Ive moved on to another original project for the time being, but if you are interested in hearing the metroid mix PM me. Again thank you to everyone who replied I learned a lot of things that I can apply to my tracks now.