Mario 64 Dire Docks on two pianos

[sci]

link to remix: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/149306395/direreverb%20ducks%20v4.mp3

backstory: I slammed this out in some weird emotional fit one night and I've been tinkering with it slowly ever since.

pianos are not my specialty but I can't seem to change it to anything else...and I like this arrangement, even if the performance is kinda gauche and obviously sequenced in MS Excel.

technical details:

original:

which four sections basically:

0:00 - 0:21 a

0:21 - 0:42 b

0:42 - 0:55 c

1:16 - 1:27 d

(and then repeat with layers)

my remix:

0:00 - 0:23 a

0:23 - 0:55 b

0:55 - 1:10 c

1:10 - 1:42 b (somewhat liberally)

1:42 - 2:00 a

specific question for the listener:

1. is that repeated chord annoying? how do fix?

2. how detrimental to the mix is the fakeness of the pianos? what should I do about this?

3. since this is so piano heavy, I worry that the overall texture and dynamics are too still/constant. what do your song-virgin ears think?

thanks for listening, and I appreciate whatever feedback you throw at me.

[fxsnowy]

1) I think the biggest problem of the song is the fact that there are too many high treble frequencies, so it gets annoying quick.

2) The fakeness of the keys is also an issue, it should be more humanized, varying the velocities and length of each note. But even then, I think all the instruments you chose don't sound real. Which would be fine, but the fact that the song mostly focuses on the keys makes it so that it has to sound realistic imo.

3) like you said, the overall texture is a little stagnant, so I think the instruments have to have enough emotion and realism to pull that style off.

Another thing is that this is more of a remake than a remix. It is too close to the source for it to be a remix. But it is still a good start, keep working on it man!

[timaeus222]

You got posted in 2012, so I'm kinda surprised at the sound quality here. But that's going to be a moot point in a moment.

It's not annoying for me, actually. However, I do think this is very fake. How detrimental is it? Well, enough to be a NO on the judges panel (sorry), but it's not going to be primarily due to the arrangement. No way. The creative harmonies are really helping the interpretation level. It's not too close to the original at all. It diverges at 0:37 very nicely while retaining some DDD chord work. 0:56 still sounds like DDD but definitely sounds more solo-like than the original melody. 1:11 has some impressive chord progression work going on for a pretty climactic section. Note-wise, this is really, really, good. No doubt the source usage is above 50% too.

The first thing I would consider though, is the runtime. You have a 2:05 mix, so the question is, does it develop enough in that amount of time to warrant that runtime? I would say yes. It's more of a gut feeling than a true evaluation, but yes, I do think it develops quickly enough in that amount of time. It doesn't feel too short. Check in my book.

The secondary thing I would take another look at is the mechanical piano and e. piano, followed by the bass presence (which is a little loud). The piano is stiff and needs more velocity variation, mainly in magnitude, since its hard tone makes it sound robotic. This would be an easy fix if you had a better sample with more velocity layers and a more drastic velocity response. Maybe someone else who has a better piano sample could collab (for instance, I could, if you want). The same idea with the e. piano. As for the bass, it's not too far off. It's about... 0.8~1.6 dB too loud.

The strings are something else I would look at too. They work as a climactic element, and in such a short piece, they need to be on point. Seems like they might be somewhat dry (but it could just be a long predelay on the reverb). I think after lowering the bass and fixing the piano and e. piano tonal hardness, it'll expose the strings more, and at that point checking the reverb would be a good idea to hide the fakeness a bit. Fake spiccato or staccato strings are pretty simple to work with, IMO, more so than, say, legato violins.

So, overall, I would look at these things:

- Piano and e. piano velocities to fix the tonal hardness issue as much as possible

- Bass volume, by about 0.8~1.6 dB downwards

- Possibly the strings reverb, maybe a sample upgrade if you can manage it, or layering more strings to thicken the timbre and hide the fakeness

- General loudness (which might be fixed as you fix the piano, e. piano, and bass, but check it anyways). Should be about 0.4~0.8 dB quieter overall, more or less.

It's short, but that's not necessarily grounds for rejection. I think a piece with a runtime of about 1:46, or something like that, has passed before.

Edited January 2, 2015 by timaeus222

[sci]

1) I think the biggest problem of the song is the fact that there are too many high treble frequencies, so it gets annoying quick.

I'm begining to think this is actually related to the mechanical, non-humanized sequencing that you mentioned in your second point, actually!

Another thing is that this is more of a remake than a remix. It is too close to the source for it to be a remix.

this makes me think I should refrain from sending this ocremix-ways. hmm.

You got posted in 2012, so I'm kinda surprised at the sound quality here.

oh damn, haha

like I said, this is kinda outside of the relm of things I'm good at. I guess it shows lol

I do think it develops quickly enough in that amount of time.

I'd describe the arrangement more as "self contained". happy to see you agree it's ok in the time department though

This would be an easy fix if you had a better sample with more velocity layers and a more drastic velocity response.

believe it or not I'm using a pretty hella library right now, I just suck at using it. (since my keyboard has two velocities: 0 and max. I have to enter everything else manually.)

As for the bass, It's about... 0.8~1.6 dB too loud.

<-- guilty trap shitter

strings

oh, good point. I've been so focused on not fucking up the piano that the strings kind of escaped my critical ear

humanized

ok.

ok.

I'm going to try something I've never done before: actually recording this shit live, on a real keyboard.

wish me luck

edit: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/149306395/dire%20dicks%20love.wav.mp3

wow look at these varying velocities

however I still actually don't know about those note lengths since I'm basically just concatenating each group of 5 notes

[timaeus222]

I'm going to try something I've never done before: actually recording this shit live, on a real keyboard.

wish me luck

edit: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/149306395/dire%20dicks%20love.wav.mp3

wow look at these varying velocities

however I still actually don't know about those note lengths since I'm basically just concatenating each group of 5 notes

Nice, the rhythmic errors show, but most of it is in the realm of human error (rather than just an actual mistake); what I would say counts as an actual mistake (some might call it "slop") would be:

- the delayed note at 0:05

- the rushed note at 0:08 and 0:12

Just those. The tonal variation is definitely much better! The frequencies themselves, in case you wanna know, have quite a bit of low end, but then again, I don't really know how you recorded it. =P

[sci]

bootleggedly. I recorded it in the most bootleg way possible.

kinda interesting timings that you gave me, since I copy and pasted most of the above section for the second loop

I'm going to try following the grid and manually quantizing each note as needed, then slamming out the rest of the song tomorrow when it's not 1 in the morning.

as for the low end, I think that can be fixed by just shortening those bass notes

[sci]

ok, recorded everything and concatenated and quantized and

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/149306395/dire%20dicks%20love%20entire.wav.mp3

...I think that really helped!

but it opened a new can of problems. the section at 1:13 sounds pretty bad now. a piano swap kind of helps:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/149306395/alternate%20pianos.wav.mp3

but I think I'm going to have to bring back the bass either way. (for that section, at least)

I think this also shows you're right about the bass: it's too loud.

or too slow to decay, imo.

[timaeus222]

There are still a few small errors in the timing that lean towards the "slop" side of human error (but what you did definitely helped a lot).

Here are the timestamps I would look at:

0:29-0:30 - a touch loud (acoustic piano)

0:39-0:40 - very slightly late (acoustic piano)

0:47-0:48 - very slightly early (acoustic piano)

0:56-0:57 - very slightly early and a touch loud (acoustic piano)

At 1:13, when you did the piano swap, I think it helped the e. piano line to get swapped for a piano, but the piano line originally playing the chords became too loud after being swapped with the e. piano. I think to help that, you could just lower all the velocities of the swapped-in e. piano in the 1:13 section by a large amount (is there a convenient shortcut for that?) until you can hear it's too quiet, and then slowly raise it back up until it sounds about right. For me personally, I usually hear volume changes more easily when I raise the volume than when I lower the volume.

Overall, I think this is a great improvement in the humanization and loudness! I also hear a little bit of that extra reverb on the strings. They fit better now. I think after you check out what I said above, a mod review would be a good idea. I do still have a hunch the acoustic piano tone could still be a small problem though (it's only because of the hardness of the tone that I say this; the velocities definitely sound noticeably varied).

You might want to check this out as a piano tone reference (or even bass reference):

http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR02465

Edited January 12, 2015 by timaeus222

[Pavos]

There are some errors in the acoustic piano playing, but my main gripe is that it sounds like everything is played staccato... in other words, you're never using a sustain pedal. For the ambience you're setting in the beginning of the song, this is really a prerequisite (since there's a silence at most points).

The switch in instruments at 1:13 is way too sudden; it's a completely different ambiance and it'll startle listeners. This is also caused by the rather weak quality of the harpsichord and the staccato strings. I also think that too much is happening at the same time there.

I think turning down the volume on the strings, decreasing the staccato on them (sustain them longer) and finding another sample for the harpsichord would help a lot. I do doubt that a harpsichord is the appropirate instrument here, but that's your arrangement decision. Furthermore, sustain the notes on the acoustic piano to set the mood and keep the atmosphere.

Edited January 12, 2015 by pu_freak

[sci]

T I do still have a hunch the acoustic piano tone could still be a small problem though (it's only because of the hardness of the tone that I say this; the velocities definitely sound noticeably varied).

regarding that...in the acoustic piano soundfont I'm using, each note has a really strong attack and quick decay, so I added a compressor to even that out.

so...that is quite possibly what is causing your hunch. I'll play around with it

There are some errors in the acoustic piano playing, but my main gripe is that it sounds like everything is played staccato... in other words, you're never using a sustain pedal. For the ambience you're setting in the beginning of the song, this is really a prerequisite (since there's a silence at most points).

of all of the feedback I've gotten on this track, here or otherwise, this is the most confusing to me.

at the risk of being an obvious piano noob: I'm not sure how to work with a sustain pedal, or rather, emulate it?

also, where?

I'm guessing it just involves lots of long lines on the piano roll.

with that in mind, I think it works nicely in the beginning, a la https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/149306395/sustain%20like%20this%20questionmark.wav.mp3

but I can't fathom that sounding good on the physical piano in my mix @_@

The switch in instruments at 1:13 is way too sudden; it's a completely different ambiance and it'll startle listeners. This is also caused by the rather weak quality of the harpsichord and the staccato strings. I also think that too much is happening at the same time there. [...] I do doubt that a harpsichord is the appropirate instrument here, but that's your arrangement decision.

yeah, with that...I think I need to heavily rework that section. I'm just not sure how to tackle it yet.

[NyxTheShield]

I think the mix is too much sided to the bass side, and the piano feels kinda automated, it also hits the higher notes in a strong way that makes my ears hurt a bit. The arrange is cool though.

[timaeus222]

regarding that...in the acoustic piano soundfont I'm using, each note has a really strong attack and quick decay, so I added a compressor to even that out.

so...that is quite possibly what is causing your hunch. I'll play around with it

You might wanna check this out:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/devwt08nbfh82p2/AACSmfuzsM1hq0akrzr0R6mCa?dl=0

This is a set of free piano soundfonts. At one point in late August 2013, I tried each one I had and picked out the ones I thought had tones that were easiest to work with to EQ and still sounded pretty good in the end. Maybe one of those can sound... less hammered/slammed, I guess, is how I could say it. Try Steinway2.sf2.

As for working with a sustain pedal, you'd need an actual connectable sustain pedal to let it work with MIDI CC (I think it was #64). Here's an example:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11192?gclid=CIKouPf1lMMCFYWUfgoddkMAKw

Edited January 15, 2015 by timaeus222

[Pavos]

Yeah I think the easiest to do is buy an actual MIDI sustain pedal, like timaeus said. The one he posted is a really cheap one that will slip away from under your foot very often, so it can be worth it to check out some more expensive ones (those also have a bit more weight so you can rest your foot on them. I think they're about fifteen to twenty bucks).

Otherwise, try to decrease the cut-off of your piano and strings if that's possible - that'll also give it a bit more sustain.