Computer Hardware For Mixing

[Skummel Maske]

By the end of December I'll be sitting on excess cash and computer parts again. I figure that's a perfect time to upgrade my audio workstation a bit. However, I have no idea where to begin. I suppose the CPU should be the first priority, then RAM. Right now I've got a 2,4GHz CPU and 1,25gb RAM. How much is enough? As for my very high latency (13,5ms) in Cubase, I think my firewire external sound thingy might be the culprit. What do you guys suggest?

[Dafydd]

I'd suggest some more RAM just in case, but I guess that depends on what kind of music you're making... I don't know. However, 13,5 ms isn't "very high" latency. That's barely enough to even notice. Even a professional counter-strike player wouldn't complain about that kind of a latency when playing a match. This thread should probably be moved to the "remixing" forum...

[Harmony]

Yeah, RAM would be my first choice since it's cheap and you're on the low end of a comfortable amount. Secondly would be an audio interface upgrade. You said yours is firewire, but which one do you actually have? You should be able to get way better than 13.5ms, at least half of that, assuming I'm not missing something. If you're using AISO drivers, try switching to WMD. If you're using WMD, try switching to AISO. For reference, if I want to push my little usb 1.1 interface, I can get 2.7ms (WMD, not AISO) and I can comfortably work at 5.1ms.

[prophetik music]

By the end of December I'll be sitting on excess cash and computer parts again. I figure that's a perfect time to upgrade my audio workstation a bit. However, I have no idea where to begin. I suppose the CPU should be the first priority, then RAM. Right now I've got a 2,4GHz CPU and 1,25gb RAM. How much is enough? As for my very high latency (13,5ms) in Cubase, I think my firewire external sound thingy might be the culprit. What do you guys suggest?

daffyd i don't think you really know anything about computer mixing.

can you post your specific model of cpu, mobo, ram (more just the specs for it), soundcard, etc? i homebuilt relatively recently, so i'll be able to tell you more about what's going on then.

that IS a high latency. post your stuff and we'll go from there.

edit - just for what it's worth, if you can tell me exactly what you've got so i can check buss speeds and the like that'd be great.

[Kanthos]

I'd suggest some more RAM just in case, but I guess that depends on what kind of music you're making... I don't know. However, 13,5 ms isn't "very high" latency. That's barely enough to even notice. Even a professional counter-strike player wouldn't complain about that kind of a latency when playing a match. This thread should probably be moved to the "remixing" forum...

If you're only using a step sequencer or piano roll, that latency is fine, because any good DAW will compensate for it and the end result is that you'd be hearing the sound roughly 13.5 ms later than you would on a machine with 0 latency (which, of course, doesn't exist, but theoretically...). If you're trying to play with your audio, whether you're using a MIDI controller or recording your live playing, latency that high can be really painful.

That said, humans have varying threshholds for noticing that kind of thing. Dafydd, you may be able to deal with a latency that high, while Prophet and I can't (10 ms or higher and I can't deal with it; I keep mine around 5 ms).

Either way, knowing exactly what kind of machine Skummel has and what kind of synths/VSTs, gear, and so on, will make a difference to what we can recommend.

[prophetik music]

mine is around 3ms with reason. that works nice. anything more than 7 or 8 starts to bother me, since that's about a 16th note late at 120bpm.

[zircon]

I used to work at 40-45ms; I switched to 10ms when I got my new dual core DAW, I love it. The issue with working at lower latencies is that you can't do as much fun stuff with plugins.

A new dual core computer (eg. an e6750 processor) with 2GB of new RAM should do you fine.

Moved to ReMixing.

[Harmony]

mine is around 3ms with reason. that works nice. anything more than 7 or 8 starts to bother me, since that's about a 16th note late at 120bpm.

Isn't a 16th note at 120bpm 31.25ms, making 8ms latency at 120bpm around a 64th note off? Maybe I forgot to carry a two or something.

And yeah, I agree with Kanthos that the latency really only is an issue if you're trying to record audio or midi commands from a controller.

[prophetik music]

yeah, harmony, you're right. i was doing math in my head and as such farted it. it's a 64th note.

[Fray]

Yeah, I basically use 5.7ms latency (with some tracks frozen/archived if necessary) when I'm recording MIDI. Otherwise I bump it up to like 50ms -- there's no point in wasting the processing power for low latency when mixing or using a mouse to edit sequences!

Like others said, the 13ms latency sounds like a driver or setting issue.

There's little point in upgrading your PC unless it's choking when you try to do something in particular. Have you ever thought, "I wish I could add more tracks/effects/soft synths, but my computer grinds to a halt?" If not, go buy something else or save your money 'till you actually need it. Monitors and room treatment are a great way to chew through a few thousand dollars if they're really burning a hole in your pocket...

[Dafydd]

daffyd i don't think you really know anything about computer mixing.

Probably not. I'm not an Overclocked Remixer, after all. I have about 13ms and couldn't tell the difference from that and 5ms, or 20ms. I used to run about 50ms (huge piano refill, in case you're wondering), and I actually learned to compensate for the lag by playing the notes in advance of the beat (it happened by itself), so to me it was no difference. Although there's a certain satisfaction in having things happen the instant you press the button, playing a keyboard and hearing the sound 13 ms later is the same to me as hearing it immediately. It's probably got more to do with me being a neanderthal than me not knowing anything about computer mixing (which, of course, a neanderthal probably wouldn't).

[Skummel Maske]

Uh, um. WMD drivers? Mobo? I suppose mobo must be the external sound card (if it can be called an external sound card)?

So, my computer. Yeah.

My CPU is an Intel Celeron, with an original clock of 2400MHz (according to Aida32).

As for my RAM, I've got 2x 512mb and 1x 256mb pc2700 unbuffered DDR SDRAM.

My sound card/box is a PreSonus Inspire, which doesn't feel very customizable and is basically just what I could get on my low budget.

My 13ms latency was before I'd activated any VST instruments, on the indicator in Device Setup in Cubase. And yes, I'm using the ASIO driver. As for my usage, I usually start by writing tracks in Guitar Pro, then I export them as midi, and then import them to Cubase. That way I can just mute the midi tracks I'll be recording, and just play along. I don't have a midi keyboard yet at any rate.

Considering the specs as of now, is my computer decent for a DAW? Except for the Inspire, perhaps? I'm pretty sure I will get more RAM, but anyways.

And thanks for the input everyone!

[zircon]

Celeron is an old and outdated processor, I would simply go for a new computer with a dual core and new RAM. Clock speed isn't necessarily everything. MOBO = motherboard, the thing that actually mounts the 'brains' of the computer, eg. the processor, RAM, graphics card, and sound card (if it's internal.)

[Skummel Maske]

Oh, motherboard. Doh. Celeron is outdated now, eh? I'm not really up-to-date on hardware anymore. My motherboard is a Gigabyte GA-8SGXL, which is a special build of another one, after what I've read. Especially made for stock PCs by.. Fujitsu, Dell, HP, something like that. I had a hard time finding any information about it, really.

I don't know which of the FSB stats that matter the most, so I can just as well list them all: Bus width: 64-bit

Real clock: 101MHz

Effective clock: 406MHz

Bandwidth: 3244 mb/s

[Harmony]

Oooh, unfortunately (if the specs I'm seeing are correct) that mobo doesn't support the newer intel CPUs or newer faster RAM. So, like zircon said, a new PC is probably the best solution.

Uh, um. WMD drivers?

WDM drivers are an alternative to AISO drivers. Depending on your system, one may work better than the other. AISO has never worked faster than WDM for me, but again it all depends. In SONAR there is an option to select between the two if your soundcard offers both. Not sure how to do it in Cubase, but maybe someone else 'round these parts could help you do that.

[Fray]

Not sure why you hate on your Inspire so much. AFAIK it's a perfectly good audio interface. More money will get you more input channels and such, but otherwise I see no reason for you to upgrade. I really don't think it's the source of your latency at all.

As I said before, your computer is powerful enough for a DAW if it's not bogging down when you do what you want to do with it. Getting a faster processor isn't going to magically make your music sound clearer or something. It's all a matter of how much you need to throw at it.

But yeah Celerons are outdated budget processors. You could definitely get something a lot faster than that.

[Skummel Maske]

Why I hate on my Inspire? I think it's just because the control panel feels to basic, and the bundled software left alot to be desired. I wanted more control over sound environment than what it offered me. Maybe being that negative about it is a mistake though.

[Fray]

Why I hate on my Inspire? I think it's just because the control panel feels to basic, and the bundled software left alot to be desired. I wanted more control over sound environment than what it offered me. Maybe being that negative about it is a mistake though.

Hmm, well, what are you looking for control over? I'm not quite sure what you mean by sound environment. For all intents and purposes, what you really want out of an audio interface is:

1. Enough inputs for what you're doing.

2. High quality D/A and A/D converters (i.e. it records sound without distortion and outputs it without distortion).

3. Zero latency input monitoring -- i.e. it can route the input sound straight to the output without having to go through the OS.

4. Basic volume level controls.

Your Inspire does all of those things. You really don't want any bass boost chicanery or "Surround WOW Maxx FX" or any of the other kind of foolishness you get with a SoundBlaster, because you're looking for transparency. Higher end recording cards aren't going to have anything fancier in terms of controls, just more inputs really.

Bundled software is usually crap anyway. Go buy the software you want.

[Harmony]

bass boost chicanery

lol. I'm gonna have to use that term sometime.

[prophetik music]

Uh, um. WMD drivers? Mobo? I suppose mobo must be the external sound card (if it can be called an external sound card)?

So, my computer. Yeah.

My CPU is an Intel Celeron, with an original clock of 2400MHz (according to Aida32).

As for my RAM, I've got 2x 512mb and 1x 256mb pc2700 unbuffered DDR SDRAM.

My sound card/box is a PreSonus Inspire, which doesn't feel very customizable and is basically just what I could get on my low budget.

My 13ms latency was before I'd activated any VST instruments, on the indicator in Device Setup in Cubase. And yes, I'm using the ASIO driver. As for my usage, I usually start by writing tracks in Guitar Pro, then I export them as midi, and then import them to Cubase. That way I can just mute the midi tracks I'll be recording, and just play along. I don't have a midi keyboard yet at any rate.

Considering the specs as of now, is my computer decent for a DAW? Except for the Inspire, perhaps? I'm pretty sure I will get more RAM, but anyways.

And thanks for the input everyone!

ok.

first of all, i use a celeron 3.46ghz processor (533 bus LOL!) and THAT sucks, so whatever you've got isn't that great either. and no, your mobo won't support anything newer or better.

if you know someone who knows computers, i'd recommend getting them to put this together into a new computer:

-c2d allendale 2 ghz processor - 135$.

-this or this would be good mobos to look at. both under a hundred.

the ecs board takes ddr2 800 ram, and this is a good one to look at, and the asus board takes ddr2 667. in general, look for one with lower CAS latency and a heat spreader, that'll speed up your machine. patriot's memory comes with a lifetime warranty, which helps out a lot. both under 45 dollars.

-you'll need a cpu fan, of course (30 bucks).

-a few hard drives (i'd suggest one or two at 7200 rpm for backups and files and one at 10,000 rpm for those music samples and heavily-accessed files. that'll be a big chunk of your cash, around $250 or so for all them.

-a case is recommended, of course. this one's 40 bucks, it's a cheap and a solidly constructed case.

-if you need a graphics card, the one i've got is absolutely fantastic - while a graphics card isn't needed on a music computer i'm sure that you game some as well, and this can handle even the newest games on my pos homebrew (3.46 celeron, 1gig ram, this card). 80 dollars. also, it's got two outputs that can be used by monitors, so you can run dual-monitors quite easily.

-for a music computer, a good sound card is required. i use this and have never had a problem with it. i prefer external sound cards because it's one less thing in your case. 45 dollars.

-a power supply. this is a pretty good one.. rosewill makes good products for relatively cheap, and they come in good packaging. i've bought six and never had a problem caused by them (dropping it does break it, though, thank god for RMAs).

-obviously you need a cd/dvd drive as well. this one's solid.

did i miss anything? you might want an external hard drive as well, and some good speakers and a nice pair of headphones, but this is the computer end of it.

that adds up after a bit - you're looking at about $800-$825 for a really nicely built computer. that's including shipping costs.

i'd put it together and ship it to you, but norway's a long trip =)

[Kanthos]

Just a note: the latency rating that you get in Cubase is based on your sound card alone. The *only* thing that will affect that number is adjusting the latency and/or buffer size in your sound card's control panel. Cubase can't change that for you, as far as I know (been a week since I last looked at that panel in Cubase, so I'm going by memory; I'm using Cubase 4 if it makes any difference). If you're unfamiliar with your Device Setup panel, let me know, and especially if you're using Cubase 4, I'll fire up my copy and take a look. I'm just not going to do it now since my Steinberg key is upstairs Feel free to ask me any other Cubase questions you might have. I'm no expert, but I'm online a fair bit, and there aren't that many Cubase users here.

A faster CPU won't affect the latency rating you see in Cubase or in your soundcard's control panel in any way, although it will affect the *overall* latency. Let me explain (and sorry if this seems too basic; I don't intend to insult).

Basically, when your soundcard is playing back data, it buffers some of the audio before playing it. Imagine there was no buffer for a minute: your sound card would have to request data from the CPU to be played back instantly. That's fine, unless your CPU can't give data instantly (for example, another process is running on the CPU for a few microseconds, something like one of the numerous background processes Windows needs to run). Without any buffer at all, there won't be any sound to play, so you'll get clicks or pops in your audio. Instead, the audio card uses a buffer to hold some data for a bit before playing it: the CPU puts data at the end of the buffer, while the audio card reads from the front.

As your buffer size approaches 0, you're more likely to get a buffer underrun (the sound card wants to play data but there isn't any), causing clicks or pops. As your buffer size gets too big, it'll take longer for data sent by the CPU to get played. This is your sound card's playback latency.

There are, of course, other kinds of latency: the time it takes for the audio signal to get from your instrument through your soundcard to your CPU, the time it takes for the CPU to process the sounds and/or MIDI data it wants to play and send output sound to the soundcard, and the time it takes your ears to hear the sound the soundcard produces. Obviously, minimizing your sound card latency is an important step in minimizing the overall latency.

Now if you're not recording (whether MIDI or audio) along with existing audio, you might think that you can get away with setting a really big buffer for your soundcard, and if you do, you might wonder why you still hear clicks and pops. Your CPU speed does matter here (as do things like plugins that read from your hard drive instead of storing all the samples in memory; a lot of Native Instruments products and EastWest Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra do this to reduce the memory load), and even with a large buffer, if you're pushing your CPU too hard, it may not be able to keep up.

As for what you can upgrade: your CPU sounds like it's the biggest problem. A better soundcard might not be that bad, but I'd start with a new CPU first. More RAM never hurts, particularly if you're doing much with samples instead of low-memory synths. I'd suggest a better computer, and try and tweak your existing sound card to perform well with the new machine before you get a new soundcard, assuming it meets all your needs in terms of input, sample rate, and so on.

[Lunahorum]

RAM - ESPECIALLY if you are using vista. Depending on how old your motherboard is, you may have a slow FSB?

Anything over 4ms of latency is noticable. over 20ms and it is impossible to keep in time.

[Dafydd]

-for a music computer, a good sound card is required. i use this and have never had a problem with it. i prefer external sound cards because it's one less thing in your case. 45 dollars.

I'd have problems if I tried using that as a sound card.

[Skummel Maske]

Kanthos, that was a very educative (is that the right word?) post, thanks alot. And guys, I'm not planning to buy a brand new computer, at least for now. I've got a total of three computers right now, where one is what I suppose is basically a low-end gaming rig (it runs UT3 fine). Then there's this one, and one that's currently stored at my father's place in Oslo, which I will pick up sometime this month.

After what I've heard, I think I could just take the sound card and hard drive from this one and jam it into the new one. It still won't be a dual core or anything, but at least it's newer than this. I think it's a Pentium 4, with a higher clock speed (which doesn't matter as much anymore?). New RAM is cheap, so I think I can easily invest in 2gb. I could always set up what's left of this one to be a fileserver.

[prophetik music]

if you can, i'd invest in the c2d i suggested. it's a flamingly fast processor that will really make a difference down the line - if only because it'll be a good processor (vista or xp) for years and years. the pD will need to be replaced relatively soon. with a processor, remember that you want a solid bus speed as well as a good clock speed. lots of other stuff matters, too, but thost are the two main ones.

daffyd, the soundblaster works fine because it's a 24-bit card as well as offering a lot of features other cards don't usually offer (optical, spdif, etc). the internal card is just as good, too.