Crowbar Man

Well, about 60K people, plus anybody whos preordered, so far. Well my entire point was arguing that the system should be attractive to developers. Also mind you: Developers make games. Its important to attract them to your console by any means necessary. The more games a console gets, the more attractive it is for the consumer. The more attractive it is for the consumer, the more buy, the numbers grow, the more developers get compensated, the more developers come on board. Rinse Cycle Repeat. Uh, where do you keep coming up with this BS about being forced to have to be free or Free 2 Play? Again, the only minimum requirement is a part of the game has to be free, like a demo. Giving out a free demo is one of the oldest economic models in the industry, its how id got their start. Why do you ignore this every time its mentioned? I have never said there would be a lot of exclusives to Ouya, especially at the start. In fact i said just the opposite, it is not a place for big budget exclusives. Its an indie console. Since it is an upstart, they will heavily rely on preexisting IPs until they become more established. This is why piggy backing on Android and partnering with Unity will give them a big break, because they can get multiplatform games on their system easily. However, smaller indie devs who can't even touch the market with Steam/XBLA/PSN would easily find a way into the market on Ouya (and by extension, Android). You may see exlusives coming just from that fact. And again, since a lot of genres are better with a controller (ie: FPS, platformers) even if there is an Android/iOS version of a game, it will suck on a touch screen, so it would be better to get the Ouya version. EDIT: Also, I should mention, the SDK hasn't even been released yet. Keep in mind: Microsoft produced an expensive, expensive console. Too expensive for anybody but MS to be able to make at a loss, not make it back, and still continue. They also were going the traditional route, with games/units in stores worldwide. Sega had made many expensive hardware mistakes in the past that caught up with them. Sony's lies combined with the popularity of PS1 and the bad rep Sega had put them at a huge disadvantage when they unfortunately stopped the hardware business during the Dreamcast cycle. They were also going the traditional route every iteration, developing an expensive powerful systems, distrubuting games/units in stores worldwide. Ouya is taking a ton of short cuts. The cheap Tegra 3 SoC (not theirs), downloadable titles so no need for store distribution, the console is NOT a powerhouse, and they are piggy backing on Android (and Indie's, and General Mobile Market's, and Free 2 Play's, and Unity's) success, etc etc. It won't be a cakewalk, they will still have to be serious to make it all work. But honestly, at the very minimum it will be another Android based device, and they do fine on their own. There seems to be a misconception that if its not some massive worldwide super success its not worth any time. Kinda shallow.

Indie doesn't mean Casual. If you only like games with large budgets, then you aren't really into indie gaming. Also insinuating that Indie games are just ripoffs of better games is kinda offensive. A lot of them are more unique and fun than produced by the big guys. That is the whole point. As I mentioned, if a person dont want to support Indie gaming, that person already own all the consoles, and nothing comes to Ouya of that persons interest, then the console isn't for that particular person. Not a big deal, some people only even buy 1 console. Doesn't mean there shouldn't be options Also, I don't believe Steam licensing is free. Greenlight may have changed that, but regular Steam licensing isn't free. And Steam isn't a console. See my other posts about the other distro models. Well they made a pretty big splash on Kickstarter and gaming news. Neblix: I'm simply providing counter arguments / information. I've never said Ouya would be gigantically successful or anything. But I can point out the obvious things people seem to be missing, over and over. Again, as stated before (sigh), if you are an Android dev, you should already be looking to make sure your game is working on as many devices possible anyways Saying devs will simply ignore "Free Money" is a very odd argument. It is possible I guess, but if people are arguing devs want money uh.

Put game on Ouya. Have some sort of revenue for it for it (Charge for it, Free 2 Play, Ads, etc). You've made money. Not sure what there is to "argue". Just because a big name company may not be able to spend millions on an exclusive AAA title on the Ouya doesn't mean nobody can make money. It is not for that. It is specifically targeted as a console for small devs to make games on, at extremely lower costs than it does the big consoles Also as I've mentioned, so so so many times. Big or small, if you have a game on Android, then you already have a game for Ouya, and putting it there is essentially free money. Also if you are building a game, on any platform, with Unity (one of the leading multiplatform game making tools): They are also partnered with Ouya, so theres probably going to be an option for Ouya. Again, basically "Free Money" outside of the cost of the Unity license to do so. If you can't understand that "compelling argument" then nothing I can do for you :/ Kind of tiring repeating myself over and over. Well I'd be fooled by the general lack of knowledge of the subject matter. Not sure what "Casual Gamers" has to do with the conversation, unless this is one of your "jokes".

I think you are still thinking too big. You can make a game in your bedroom in your spare time. Not sure why we are using a 3 month timespan but there are several compos where indies make games in a short amount of time and release them for free. Its more than possible. There are lots of games that come out on Android (and iOS) that use an on screen controller and suck because of it. Remove the on-screen controller, use a real one, problem solved? I fail to see why a game company, large or especially small, would ignore money, of any ammount? You can make money on Ouya. Its basically free money if you already have your product on Android Eh, I dont think hes made hardly any valid points honestly. Not really insulting him either Also, he wasn't talking about Ouya, and if he was, I wasn't talking about Ouya when he entered the conversation I was having at the time (which was about devs making games with no money, again, nothing to do with Ouya) and started saying what he was saying, which is completely unrelated to Ouya too. Did you forget the conversation too? You both need to reread then. Nobody else seems to agree

That would be true if A) this was a major console release it wasn't aimed at Indies C) Android didn't already exist and didn't have a huge amount of developers already Well thats just the initial batch numbers, you act as if nobody will ever buy one in the future. Also as Dhsu pointed out, those numbers only if your game is completely "Free to Play" which is not required (minimum requirement is a free demo). Also you are not considering that is on top of the numbers you are already making off of Google Play if you already have the game on the Android platform. Uh, as previously discussed, depends on the game/developer really. If you've spent next to nothing making the game, getting anything back is profit. I really don't get why people keep ignoring that this is an Indie game console and the fact Google Play exists. I keep making these same statements but doesn't seem to click with anybody :/

Well, really low does not mean none at all. Theres a difference between charging developers a small fee (like $99/year for iOS and $25 for Android) and requiring tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars per game license (XBLA/PSN). Also theres a huge difference in how much money they need to "make back" off these units compared to the big guys. They dont need to make back tons of RD for custom expensive chip designs and/or new media formats, nor do they need to make back money from millions of units they created at LESS THAN COST which is what MS/Sony do at launch. But since we dont know if they are making profit or not at $99 I couldn't tell you. I doubt they are charging less than cost though And I can play from any side I want. You aren't the boss of me! Well, I've pointed out the Kickstarter isn't really their funding capital. So we are in agreement there i guess? And they said they weren't going to run out and contact venture capitalists immediately after the Kickstarter.. but I wouldn't say "never" in the future. Well at least you admit you don't know about the indie scene. ! Doesn't really matter if YOU dont know about them, they exsist, have popular games, and have pledged some sort of support for the console. It doesn't matter what "investment" they have. If they are publicly speaking with Ouya and putting their name out, they would not consider it a con wouldn't you think? Same goes for SE and Namco Bandai. Why would they be announcing anything, at all, if it was a complete con? Whether a product comes out is irrelevant (but since they already have android products out, why would they not?) JUST FOR MEEE! As far as the conversation you are still trying to backpedal out of, but for some reason bringing up again, anybody can see if they read this thread you are full of it and that wasn't what we were talking about. Keep trying to backpedal but you aren't doing a good job of it. I wouldn't bring it up again, it just makes you look odd FYI (Since you seem to have blocked it out of memory): The conversation at that point was about developers making games with low/no budgets. How this directly related to Ouya's costs of producing a game system, and why you insist you were talking about this when you said Cave Story was a waste of time to be made when it was released free, I have no idea. The conversations are almost completely unrelated, and I can't figure out how you are linking them, and how you still think you are in the right either way. Oh and uh I dont think Cave Story is just "my" favorite game. I'm pretty sure a large portion of the gaming community, especially people who play indies, has it as one their favorites, including the people who called you out on your BS here at OCR. If you havn't played it, maybe you should? Then feel bad for what you said Mister.

Controllers relatively are dirt cheap, they are only marked up high by console manufacturers to return huge profits to offset the loss of the cost of hardware. As far as shipping, they dont have to ship to stores at first like most products (not sure if they ever plan on shipping to stores?), Im pretty sure only the Kickstarters are getting shipping free anyways. When the console gets released, you'd be paying for shipping I really do not think they plan on manufacturing a million units any time soon. They only need enough to cover preorders and the Kickstarter for launch Without knowing how much they had on hand before Kickstarter and how much they may obtain afterwards, its kinda hard to tell if they can pull all this off, but it will be a challenge for sure. But a lot of people seem to be under the impression that A) Kickstarter is where ALL their capital is coming from and They are going to launch like a standard console Neither are true I said big and small. Regardless, Mojang has a lot of money to play around with right now for an indie. Their name is pretty huge in the Indie circle and well beyond.

Uh, maybe you missed the part where I said Ouya doesn't have a screen, battery, camera, etc. You know, things that make Nexus 7 expensive to produce? So youre saying Square Enix, Namco Bandai, Mojang, Robotki, Plex, Team XBMC, TwitchTV, OnLive, SemiSecret, SpryFox, MADFINGER, etc are all in on the con? Highly possible. But I'll assume not. Yeah that was it. Completely. Not an entirely different conversation, Nope. Also, it has the same possible future as ANY device released with Android apps/games as a backbone. Most of them do well enough on their own That depends on if $99 is "cost" and no profit at all. Also, youre forgetting this is similar to what console manufacturers do, release an item at cost or less than cost, get the money back via accessories (Ouya controllers, supports up to 4), and game/license agreements (Ouya is taking a % of game sales,) Also, you dont know how much money they had before or will get after the Kickstarter. From what it looks like, the Kickstarter was just a big advertisement/preorder campain. Seems like it worked Its possible they will just use a custom frontend to Google Play, though it hasn't been stated anywhere yet if this device will be Google Certified for Google Play yet. If it doesn't use Google Play in any way, that will be quite the challenge. Though it is also possible they already have this network up before they started the Kickstarter.

If the entire Nexus 7 can be offered at $200 now I dont see why Ouya cant be around the $100 figure 9mo to a year from now. It doesn't have screen, battery, camera, etc. Also, "similar" (but less powerful) products are being offered around $100 (Roku, Apple TV, Vizio's new Google TV box, etc). Heck, Rasberry Pi mentioned here, is $25. Maybe not $99 on the dot, but I dont see why double, that is as much as the 360 currently costs. Neblix: There are always evil people in the world looking to con anybody into anything. Technically theres nothing really stopping kickstarters from conning people once they complete the kickstarter and meet goal. Though you don't generally have this much support from the general gaming community and industry (both indie and big name) if you are a complete con. Here's just hoping they can do what they say they want to. It'll be awesome if they can

The big game companies have to R&D their own chips, push expensive technology thats usually not actually around, have to develop dev kit models / software and work with 3rd party devs for getting games built and/or exclusive to their own system for launch, develop a BIOS/OS and Copyright protection procedure, manufacture tons of units and get ready for worldwide launches, etc etc None of this applies to Ouya. Tegra 3 already exsists. None of the technology here is new or unique. Android (OS) already exsists. Their SDK will heavily rely on the SDK already provided by Google for Android I'm sure, and devs dont need a "transition period" because Android has been out for quite some time. Their target audience is much smaller, and basically right now "whoever already bought it" As far as the tight schedule, yes, it is quite tight, they may have a problem, they may not. Depends on how far they were before they Kickstarted I suppose Not saying its not a scam, still could be for all I know, but comparing them to other consoles doesn't make any sense as far as how long it takes to come to market

One Winged Angel (PSX) One Winged Angel (XG) One Winged Angel (2012) The Terror.

Sadly, it does not even appear to be Yamaha XG. Either way, I still perfer the originals soundtrack over the XG version from what I've heard, the instruments seem slow, muffled, or just off timed. The good news is that since its Ogg, you can just mod the music (which someone already has modded the original OST back in) but why should you have to do that on a new release? Also, more fun news, SecuROM DRM apparently has limited activations. PSX - Fighting - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcsEfkNeRm0 Still More Fighting - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSxKxCz9M4s Old PC Release on XG - Fighting - Still More Fighting - New PC Release (2012) OGG: Fighting - Still More Fighting -

Rasberry Pi is very neat, but as already stated, definitely not a console and not something your average joe can pick up and play games on. No controller either. Its really popular among hobbyists though, worth checking out if you like fiddling with junk and want to do a DIY media/console/thing. Someone was even working on an Android ICS build for it, and Team XBMC is also working on it! Power side, its kinda lacking with 700Mhz and 256MB RAM, but GPU is supposed to be half decent (though obviously no Tegra 3). Still a great tool for a hobbyist to fool around with.

Now speaking of new additions to the conversation: I thought this was probably the case but Ouya has confirmed the console supports up to four controllers. Namco Bandai is in active discussions with Ouya and plan on taking votes on what games you would like to see on it on their Facebook at some point, if you do that kind of thing

Oh okay, glad you elaborated. I must be wrong then Mission statement says nothing about it doing it for free. Ouya will take cut of profits devs make, this is the same exact way Android/iOS works, as stated multiple times. When the subject you are talking about, and the subject we were discussing , are completely different, yes. You do. Even if you claim that is what you meant, it still makes absolutely no sense in or out of context. Its still shallow no matter HOW you think about it. I've detailed everything and said "here is where you are wrong" every post. Right now its clear you are just back pedaling and/or trolling and its been really a waste of time to try to decipher your so called "points" so if this was your last post on the matter, thank goodness! Maybe we can get some more people who want to add to the discussion, AND know what they are talking about.

Yet this is exactly what you said. Yeah, back pedaling. "oh yeah i was just referring to companies who are trying to money" when the conversation wasn't anything about that and you made no distinction. I guess you missed part of the main mission statement of getting a cheap way for bedroom programmers and hobbyists to make games on consoles? They even talk about how easy it is to hack, again a hobbyist activity. You don't seem to know ANYTHING about the subject matter. Its an Indie console. Its being very widely advertised as one. Where do you keep seeing "WE ONLY WANT BIG BUSINESS AND TONS OF PROFITS!"?

Well, that is kinda just picking at words. But more accurately, I'd want anybody to fix it (and I'm sure I'm not alone). Ouya is the first stepping up to the plate, or at least, claiming to do so. We shall see how this pans out EDIT: I support the idea. I have no idea if this company can pull it off. I have never said anything to that matter. I am simply supporting the concepts, and defending the concepts in general. It could work out, if someone was serious about it. These people could be just scam artists for all I know. But the IDEA is great. Cave Story: The fact his game got popular enough that people took notice does not counter the fact he created the game for free without intention of profit or even getting noticed. Hes a very humble japanese guy who just wanted to make the game. It didn't even get picked up for a commercial release for 5+ years. You are still saying the game is only of value NOW because hes making money, and if he didn't, it was a waste of time. There are plenty of freeware indies that don't get this popular. They are not wastes of time to be created, nor is the original Cave Story. To say they all only made the games to get noticed is pretty shallow. Their "Personal Benefit" is the joy of creation, and the joy of people enjoying their work. And there are plenty of people who make games as a hobby. You don't seem to know much about this subject yet you keep on going on. I've even provided links, yet you continue to ignore. Again I can only think you are trolling at this point. Or at the very least, very unaware of anything but making money and big business.

You know interestingly enough, Google's Nexus Q was mysteriously delayed during this Ouya deal, and even weirder as an appology they are sending out free 2nd Q's. It kinda made me think maybe they saw the popularity with Ouya and thought about retooling it to support gaming (like having a controller bundled, supporting Ouya, etc). But thats probably just wishful thinking / reading too much into it / completely unrelated. Its only about as powerful as the Galaxy Nexus which I dont think has as much muscle as the Ouya would of had. It would be nice if Google made a Nexus console out of the stuff they have in the Nexus 7 or better

Maybe you are not familiar (even though I've already stated it) with how it costs thousands of dollars to just get a dev kit, and tens of thousands of dollars to get your content onto said consoles? I really dont understand how you could not see this as a problem. Its not that they "DO NOT PAY" its that its impossible for an average bedroom dev to afford. The ONLY affordable console option at this point is XBLIG which MS barely treats their XBLA devs right, let alone XBLIG. People are more than willing to pay to put their products out if its of reasonable cost of entry, as seen from iOS/Android/XBLIG. Free, paid, or in between. Also, there are devs making homebrew for cracked consoles/handhelds. But thats a very underground activity with an extremely narrow audience. It still counters your point that "nobody who releases freeware does it on a console" Probably not relevent but: some of the more wealthier indies, who did manage to come up with the cash, have made releases on XBLA/PSN (Braid, Super Meat Boy, FEZ), and created games they love on a console. No its not freeware, but the focus of the point isn't freeware (you can make money on Ouya), its creating something you wanted to make, and doing it on a low/no budget, on a console, and paying for it. If you've seen Indie Game The Movie, Super Meat Boy developers (two guys in their bedrooms) risked pretty much everything just to get the game THEY wanted to make on a console. It shouldn't be that hard, and these people actually had the insane amount of money it takes. An Ouya dev wouldn't have to go through that. My total point being: You can make a game without a lot of money. You can make a game without charging. You cannot do either of these, let alone both, effectively on a console. Ouya should fix that. Why not? That is still a market of 50,000 people to buy a game that didn't exsist before, and has potential to increase in the future. Its also a market of people you know would probably be interested in indie games. Hard to take someone who says Cave Story, IJI, etc were a waste of time to be created seriously. For "similar games on TV" : Apple TV, Google TV, Roku, and OnLive are products that already exsist and sell fine. This should be better than those devices for gaming. And you'd get MORE than whats on XBL/PSN obviously, XBL/PSN has an extremely high barrier to entry so not everybody can afford to put their games on it. But you know what? Someone looking for a dirt cheap console with tons of cheap and/or free games? I bet they'd pay $100 over paying $200 for $60 a pop games and/or $15 downloads. And any indie fans should buy this simply to support the cause Not Relevent: Google is soon releasing a product (Nexus Q) for $300 thats basically an amp for playing lossy mp3s (as of this moment doesn't support lossless formats like FLAC) on a nice stereo system. It has some video options (movies, youtube, a visualizer for your audio), but doesn't even do many basic Google TV like functions. So "what people will pay for" is subjective

So... FFVII leaked onto Square's store and was pulled... from what people have seen so far: Ogg files present in the game are recorded MIDIs off probably a sound card or synth, instead of the original PSX sound track. This includes OWA which is completely missing its lyrics. Videos are upscaled versions of the original PSX videos (possibly with extra compression added to make them look worse) Also contains SecuROM DRM. GOOD JOB SQUARE! Maybe fixing? Probably not.

A person who wants to create something can create something purely for the joy of creating. You can write music (See freaking OCR), paint, build, and yes, create a videogame, simply because you enjoy doing it and/or want others to enjoy your work. Some people do obviously enjoy making it a living and being compensated for their work, but to say its impossible and that nobody does it for free or makes games with a small/no budget is a complete falsehood. I provided you with a link of a small database with 500+ games that were created with probably little to no budgets, all released completely free. At the very least the first couple pages are great games. Cave Story is still a prime example, and one of the best games I've ever played. Regardless, one "Personal Benefit" of making your game on Ouya is obviously money. Easy money if you are already making Android games, stated plenty of times here by me and others. I'm not even sure where your path of thinking is going. At this point I think you are just trolling. Okay? Look at Android/iOS. Yes there are countless, countless bad apps. But there are plenty of good ones too. They did well? I think of this as simply an extension of the Android ecosystem anyways. Its not like there is a huge "standard of quality" on even the big platforms, look at the junk that winds up on Wii/PS3/360. EDIT: I keep forgetting to mention this, but since people seem to be skipping over the fact this is an Android based device I'll add this to the mix: If you are an Android developer, you should already be trying to make your games/apps work on different platforms already. There is no one set hardware for Android, so the more options you put in, the more hardware you support, the more your product will be on different types of hardware, and the more it will sell. This includes Screen Resolutions, Devices with or without keyboards, and entire sub divisions of like Phones, Tablets, Google TV, etc etc. Adding Ouya into the mix should not derail the norm for an avid Android dev already trying to push their products on as many devices as possible. Zircon is spot on. The more ways you can sell your product, the more you obviously make. As long as the return is bigger than the investment, it is money in your pocket whether it sells tons more or just a little.

Wait, so your saying all the small time indie devs who make fantastic games are all wasting their time simply because there is no personal benefit? Wow. Talk about ignorant. Also CAVE STORY is a complete waste of time to have been made? Are you out of your damn mind? XBL is extremely expensive in both getting your game on (publish), development (dev kit), and upkeep (updates/new content all require tens of thousands of dollars each certification). Thats why? Have you not been paying attention? EDIT: Also to cure your vast lack of knowledge of the indie scene, I'd like to point you to this: TIGSource Indie DB Just a small database of how wrong you are. For your convenience, I've selected "Top" and "Freeware"

Do you have a point to the post then? CaveStory+ a remake co-developed and released by Nicalis on Wii, and later Steam, neither of them free or cheap to publish, one not cheap to develop for (Wii), charges money for the product. Yes? I agree? As stated in MY post: several years ago, Studio Pixel, a one man developer, made Cave Story in his spare time and released it free on the PC, where you can still get it for free. I dont know what more to say

Thats Cave Story+, the remake. Cave Story, the original, is still free. Nice try?

Larger/Better/More Established, and just as inexpensive to put your game on? And uses the same codebase as Android? I read the details, you were already countered by everybody else posts. I just added the fact its already on consoles / Google TV / Roku . I didn't feel the need to repeat what was already said by others, but if you would like I can? Correction: There is a push for access to free material. As in, at least a portion of the game free. This can range from Ad sponsored to Free 2 Play to Demo w/ Paid full version (like MC/Shadowgun/FFIII). Maybe you've been ignoring the booming mobile sector and PC market that has established this type revenue over the last few years? This is a lucrative market that makes tons of money for devs big and small. Except for the fact there are tons of indies who release games absolutely free. Cave Story being a prime early example of a top quality product that had no funding, and didn't ask for a dime for years. Maybe you've heard of it? No, not all Indie devs are like this, but it is entirely possible to make a game funded with nothing but your will power.