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Gold Medal Challenge '92 / Double Dribble

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oh hi!

First of all, it's been a very long time since I was in these boards the last time, mainly because I was focusing more on VGmix then. Anyway, recently I thought of coming back to check on the action. I won't come empty-handed, so

Link: http://timonie.googlepages.com/1_03.mp3

Length: 4:44

Style: Metal, electronica, sort of

Getting comments sometimes seems to be a task, so perhaps some of you lot can tell me how to improve that.



LATEST VERSION: http://diseasedproject2.googlepages.com/ShotThroughTheChest.mp3


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[X] Drums have no energy

[X] Mixing is muddy (eg. too many sounds in the same range)

PERFORMANCE (live recorded audio/MIDI parts)

[X] Timing not tight enough

PERSONAL COMMENTS (positive feedback, specifics on checklist criticisms, any other thoughts)

Liking what I'm hearing so far, but there are a few things that definitely need to be addressed. Rhythm guitar is just mud-city; especially when you palm mute some notes. Also, when it comes to the palm muting, it seems as if it's not as tightly recorded as it could be. It's almost indecipherable in terms of tone. That is the single biggest problem and it's big enough that if I were a judge I'd NO it instantly.

Lead tone is good, might want to consider a little bit of delay on it but it's not necessary at all.

Synths are fine.

Drums seem to be lacking something. The kick is too "thuddy" and not "clicky" enough for this time of music. Cymbals seem kind of cheap or fake sounding.

Transfer at 4:00 seems arbitrary and does not flow well at all. What it transfers into is fine, but the transition just doesn't mesh well from riff A into riff B.

Bass is fine.

I'd just work on tweaking the rhythm more than anything, then move onto the drums.

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I saw you helping out a bunch of other people so I figured I'd return the favor for you.


Definitely a chiptune intro done right.


Everything kicks in heavy, which is nice, and that synth that comes in sounds great as well. The guitar has a great tone to it at it plays off nicely against the synth. That said, I feel that the guitar should be a bit brighter.


The synth that was in the earlier section had a lot of high end that suddenly goes away in this switch and its a bit weird. Maybe try adding in another note when the transition is made to allow for a bit more continuity? Iono. The drum programming is excellent. If I had to nitpick any more I guess the snare could be a bit more audible but really it could be at just the right level and I just don't know it.


Nice, nothing specific about this section to complain about.


The transition is handled a lot better here, well done. I actually kinda love the part right here.


Drum programming right here is fantastic.


Back into it again. I still really like your drum programming, I am starting to feel they could be louder though, and you guitar definitely needs to be brighter, and aural exciter or maximizer will probably do the trick.


I like the way the guitar plays off the strings in this, but both are kind of hard to distinguish from each other because they're both taking up the same frequency range. Also, I'd like to see a bit more variety in the drums here for the first 8 or 16 bars or whatever.


I like the kick in the middle of the little breakdown. That said, I wish that guitar had more volume in it, or something more to distinguish it from the other guitar tone you've been using this entire time.


Not bad at all, I like this part a lot


The synth in here is a bit weird but it blends in fine, just wasn't expecting it.


What the hell happened here? Its alright once it get into this point but the transition is horribly sudden. Maybe you could do something with the 8-bit synth for like an extra bar before the transition that leads into this but its all a bit weird. That said, the section itself sounds fine.


Really good remix, but like Nekofrog said the guitar tone needs a bit of work. As for the rhythm thing, I couldn't hear what he was talking about but maybe you updated the mp3 since he commented. Also, I thought the drums were fine but they could stand to be louder and perhaps even brighter.

My main problem with the remix is that it feels too muddy, the synths are the only things with brightness and so every time they're played the high end stands out way too much because there's nothing else competing for it. Try using maximizers and exciters on various components to see if you can give this some more overall energy.

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Thank you for the nice comments. I'll break some of them out for you a bit:

0:00 Don't go praising that chiptune intro too much, it's ripped straight from the nsf :D

1:46 (and some others) About the guitar not being bright enough: That was the main (and only?) thing me and Neko talked about on IRC, and he gave me some really good tips on how to record guitar, and I'm planning on putting those tips into use. Basically it means recording all guitars again (except for leads), but Neko proved they can sound like metal guitars, but without muddiness. For that reason I'm gonna follow his advice. Like I said earlier, I'll update this in about a week. (Also, Neko didn't hear a different version, version 1.03 is the current and only one I've posted here)

2:07 Actually you caught me red-handed here, that was a part where I could not come up with great drums, so I kinda went under the fence there. I'll see if I can come up with something better there.

The kick drum issue's (and more distinctive volumes) kinda revolving around my head atm, so I think I'll check the guitars first and if the good people in #ocr-wip feel I should change the kick drum, I will. It's not my priority however.

4:00 I kinda did the awkward transition on purpose here. If you look back at 2:07, it's actually the same (Double Dribble) melody playing, but with some variation. In 2:07 it was in minor, and kinda "moody" and dark, when in 4:00 it's in major. I know it's kinda hard to understand without explanation, but my thought there was that there's a game going on, which the "good team" is about to lose, but near the end of the song they come up as winners. Yeah, sounds dumb :D Anyway, again, fixing this is not a priority, but if majority thinks it should be fixed, then I'll try.

In conclusion of this post, I really like that people like this remix. At first the mixing got bad enough responses to make me work on it more, and now when it's starting to get better and there are left only issues I CAN fix, it encourages me to work on it even more. Also, now that I've given it quite a lot of time, I don't want to half-ass it. There you can see that feedback really does mean something. :)

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You know, I think the whole "the good team is trying to come back" aspect is kinda cool but one thing that would really emphasize that more is if you had everything get kinda quiet and tense right before the final switch-off, like a final basket is about to be made. You could also sample ESPN or a sports movie and have a commentator comment on the "game" during that point, pushing the idea even further. Or you could commentate on it yourself if you're hardcore and add in fan sounds or something. I don't know, just something random I thought of today.

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Nice job man, i like this alot.

Pretty much everything is already covered here, the muddy rhythm guitars and the drums are the things i would fix.

I like the lead guitar though, i would put i little delay on it though.

I love the 8-bit synth sound you threw in there - sounds good.

The composition of it is well executed - although that transition at 4.00 isn't great - there is to much difference in the two sections that makes it stange to have such a sudden change. I would add a string part in that section to fill out the sound there, the begining of that section sounds a little empty in comparision with the rest of the track. If you do that, i think the transition will work much better.

Well done mate, i enjoyed this alot

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Not exactly an _update_ but more of a short demo this time. I began the process of re-recording the guitars, but in order to save time I recorded only a couple of riffs (as the filename implies, under could-be-better circumstances), because I want you to let me know if the guitar still sounds muddy or if they've improved. If you think they sound okay, I'll continue with the current setup; if not, then I'll tweak the sound some more. Also, there's currently two rhythm guitars playing (the left one about 50% to the left and the right one about 50% to the right). If you feel I should use quadruple guitars (meaning one guitar panned hard left, one halfway left, one hard right and one halfway right, as Neko suggested) then I'll do that if it radically improves the sound.

http://timonie.googlepages.com/GMC_DDhangoverriffs.mp3 (it's about a minute long clip)

Also, you don't need to tell me if the guitars are too quiet or too loud; I just slapped them there and once I've recorded all the guitar parts, then I'll worry about the mixing and stuff. For now, I just want to know if the guitars sound ok. Thanks :)

edit: oh, and the new guitars come up at 0:05, and not immediately, for the reason being that I couldn't play the first riff properly because the hangover caused a limp arm illness. hehe

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I gave some feedback in IRC, but I'll do it here too.

Looks like the advice I gave you panned out (pardon the pun :) ). Rhythm guitar sounds much clearer, more present, and is just plain rockin'.

I'm curious to know what it sounds like quad tracked, or with the two tracks just panned hard left and right.

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Update time! This new version has re-recorded guitars (dual atm, but I will try quad tomorrow with a short sample like before; now I'm too tired and a soccer game is on) except from 4:05 onwards, because I didn't think that part needs to be re-recorded (correct me if I'm wrong, recording that part either is no big task). Also, there's a reworked transition at that dreaded 4:00 mark. Don't know if it will satisfy the majority even now, you tell me.


If you think the guitars are okay, song structure in order, etc. it's time for me to work on the mixing next. Are the drums too loud or too quiet? Should I replace the bassdrum with a different sample? Any guitar parts that aren't tight enough/are they too loud in some parts? I think it's just minor tweaking now, and I want this song to the best that I can get with my current skills, so help me out :) Thanks!

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Some small tweaks:

-Upped the snare volume a bit

-Upped some other volumes

-Added more bass to the rhythm guitars of the latter part

-Altered the hi-hat where the first lead comes into play


Once again, it comes to people's opinions as to what I should do next. If there's even one second in the mix that bugs you, please let me know. I'll do my best to fix the issues. It helps if you can point out exactly what needs to be corrected, and HOW it could be done. Thanks! :)

Btw. The Quad Experiment is postponed till tomorrow, but I'll definitely try it too.

edit: I fixed a few small issues that bugged me.

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Okay, another update (and probably the last one):


And look it has a name too now!

Well, feel free to criticize if there's still something that should be fixed. I'm going to let this sit here for a couple of days, and after that I'm going to give it to the judges to chew. So, if you think something doesn't click, you've got a few days to tell me. THANXXXXXXX

<edit>: Nevermind that, it seems I've got to record all the guitars once more, since people think they sound fuzzy. So it's going to be waiting a whole while before I send it forward </edit>

Also, I finally tried the quad thing too (I apologize for it taking so long, it's just that I got a bunch of extra work from my company on Thursday and then I just forgot), so if you think the quad-thing is mandatory here, let me know. Since this is the 1st time I've done something with 4 guitars, the mixing blaablaa might be a bit off.


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