Pokémon Gold/Silver - Sprout/Tin/Olivine/Burned

[SLyGeN]

Link, as of 4/18/10.

I'm taking a short break from this piece 'til summer rolls around, since I'm finding myself with less free time. I like having long, lazy afternoons to devote to this, since I'm the kind of person that likes to get loads done all at once, rather than in fragments.

I appreciate all of the suggestions and I'll continue to check back here every so often to see if there are any new ideas or comments.

Here's the source material in the order it appears:

Sprout -

Tin - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZlc09MoxPk

Olivine Lighthouse - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mpkCAmfb7Q

Burned -

[SLyGeN]

I uploaded a new version. Now the track has Olivine Lighthouse.

I was a little disheartened to see that nobody had anything to say about the first version I uploaded. I'm pretty dead-set on getting something on this website, so help is appreciated.

[ExtremeYoshiFan]

I like this, it just seems to blend together. I apologize, I went to download this as I really liked these songs and apparently I had already downloaded it but didn't listen or post. this song does need some of the minor touch up work. This song also is a nicer darker music piece, You don't have that warm feel, I like it. I am not saying it sounds bad, The way this was composed makes it feel as if you were trekking through the towers to get to the top. I like the varied instruments even though they are mostly synths, The different ones add a feel of difference with a similar sound .I also like the intro as well.

[SLyGeN]

I agree that it needs touching up, and there are a few areas that I plan to work on as far as sound texture. However I think a second opinion would still be helpful. Where specifically would you tweak it?

[evory]

The soundscape in the first part does sound a little empty, and just a suggestion, I think church bells tolling in the distance, coupled with the gusts of wind, would be a pretty nice touch. I like how the music comes in after the intro, but I'm finding the piano sound in the first part way too empty -- sounds like high velocity on each note yet I'm not feeling it resonating with the rest of the piece. The transition at 2:19 is way too abrupt, and makes it seem like a poorly constructed medley, especially with the key change given the starting D conflicting with the previous Dbs, which seems a bit jarring to me. Again I suggest some bell-tolling or gong-smashing, because that's the impression this piece is giving me (although I have no idea if it's something you think makes sense). The little silences are pretty striking though, and I like that touch. The reintroduction of the drums in the end is pretty nice, and I think the synth fits in pretty nicely there. The build-up to the ending is really nice, but I think the actual finish was a tad anti-climatic, unless of course you plan to extend the piece after this.

Mm, just my opinion yep.

[SLyGeN]

The soundscape in the first part does sound a little empty, and just a suggestion, I think church bells tolling in the distance, coupled with the gusts of wind, would be a pretty nice touch. I like how the music comes in after the intro, but I'm finding the piano sound in the first part way too empty -- sounds like high velocity on each note yet I'm not feeling it resonating with the rest of the piece. The transition at 2:19 is way too abrupt, and makes it seem like a poorly constructed medley, especially with the key change given the starting D conflicting with the previous Dbs, which seems a bit jarring to me. Again I suggest some bell-tolling or gong-smashing, because that's the impression this piece is giving me (although I have no idea if it's something you think makes sense). The little silences are pretty striking though, and I like that touch. The reintroduction of the drums in the end is pretty nice, and I think the synth fits in pretty nicely there. The build-up to the ending is really nice, but I think the actual finish was a tad anti-climatic, unless of course you plan to extend the piece after this.

Mm, just my opinion yep.

That's what I like to hear; thank you.

I plan to go over everything you said with a fine-toothed comb.

The transition at 2:19 has a stinger on purpose, however I do agree that it would flow better if I didn't pause for so long. I don't recall using the key of D right after Db; that's a big red flag that I'll have to look into. Sometimes, however, I think a half-step up sounds good in the interests of tension. Perhaps I'll instead move to Phrygian built on the sixth degree of the preceding key.

I also plan to add rain during the intro, and I also think church bells are a great idea. I'm eager to hear what comes of the next version.

I noticed what you meant regarding the anticlimax of the ending, and it did bother me. That was something I kinda liked in a masochistic sort of way; I thought that, along with the slowing tempo and frematta accented the feeling of sadness. However, I do love huge, epic V - i or vii - i cadences to finish a good song up as well. So I'm curious to hear from a few different people as to whether the soft ending is a good or bad thing. If everyone generally wants a big finish, I'm all for it. Perhaps I could also add more material between the huge Burned Tower section and the soft section after it, so that it has more time to die down.

Thoughts?

[evory]

That's what I like to hear; thank you.

I plan to go over everything you said with a fine-toothed comb.

The transition at 2:19 has a stinger on purpose, however I do agree that it would flow better if I didn't pause for so long. I don't recall using the key of D right after Db; that's a big red flag that I'll have to look into. Sometimes, however, I think a half-step up sounds good in the interests of tension. Perhaps I'll instead move to Phrygian built on the sixth degree of the preceding key.

I also plan to add rain during the intro, and I also think church bells are a great idea. I'm eager to hear what comes of the next version.

I noticed what you meant regarding the anticlimax of the ending, and it did bother me. That was something I kinda liked in a masochistic sort of way; I thought that, along with the slowing tempo and frematta accented the feeling of sadness. However, I do love huge, epic V - i or vii - i cadences to finish a good song up as well. So I'm curious to hear from a few different people as to whether the soft ending is a good or bad thing. If everyone generally wants a big finish, I'm all for it. Perhaps I could also add more material between the huge Burned Tower section and the soft section after it, so that it has more time to die down.

Thoughts?

Sorry if I what I said was unclear -- I wasn't referring to the usage of the keys of Db and D (if I'm not wrong, although I suspect I may be, isn't the preceding key already Phrygian built on the 6th, i.e. C?), but rather, the second note of the scale, i.e. Db, stands out because it's unusual in both major and minor keys. So when you begin the next section with a D, in seems more like a poorly built medley due to remixer incompetence (which I'm pretty sure you're more than able of overcoming) than a properly constructed transition. I think it's not so much the length of the pause that contributes to this feeling of detachment, than the abruptness in change of key, so I think throwing in some proper modulation would make it transit better. As for the issue of tension, I don't think the effect plays out well in this case, and I was thinking maybe playing with bass frequencies or even multiple tempo changes would contribute to that effect more than this perceived dissonance.

Yep, I think rain would be a pretty nice touch, and I'm eager to hear it as well haha.

The slowing tempo was done up pretty nicely, and I don't think you should launch back into a big epic ending, because I like the effect you've created with the phasing out of instruments and tempo, although I think it could be extended a little bit more, and resolved in a more complete way. Ultimately though, it's still up to how you want the ending of the piece to feel, and if you like the masochism of the ending, that's all good haha. Adding a bit more material would be good, and if you do want to stick with the unsatisfying ending, it would make things all the more anticlimatic, so if that's the effect you're going for, it should work better that way.

[SLyGeN]

Okay, my friend, along with a few tweaks and adjustments here and there, I made sure to (attempt a) fix at everything you mentioned.

Listen for:

-New intro!

-Tweaked outro!

-Tweaked velocities and levels on the piano for Sprout Tower

-Transition into Olivine Lighthouse

Once again, I'm glad you pointed out the emptiness at the beginning. I really like the beginning now. The church bells add a very nice effect to the intro, and, one who listens closely will notice I made them strike 03:00, which I think is a fitting hour for this piece.

I still need to tweak my pads a little bit. They're essentially nonexistant (or they're a bassoon).

also here, check it out.

Tin Tower is in purple, Olivine Lighthouse is in tan.

I also began to write out the theory behind what I had done, but it's become one of those moments where you look at someone's work, say "wtf was this guy on", and then realize it was your own.

Basically what I did was I repeated Cm, went to Fm, because I thought I was going to the seven chord of G phrygian. And I did, until I thought a D sounded better in the soprano, and then I moved everything up to D. So I need to go back and change that last chord in the purple to a seven chord of D phrygian... which would be .. oh. Cm. That works out nicely.

It's dinner time though. I'll do that later.

[SLyGeN]

Okay, all that shit is fixed. I keep putting off tweaking the synthesizers because that's going to be the most grueling part, but there's not much else for me to tweak at this point.

There's a new WIP up now. Unless there's a huge influx of suggestions and listeners, this might be the last one, or perhaps second-to-last, since this WIP hasn't gotten a whole lot of attention.

Thanks for your help, Evory.

edit: The amount of work one gets done when there's nothing else to do. The last "WIP" is now up there, unless someone points out something that needs fixing.

[halc]

45 second ambient/wind intro; nothing wrong with that necessarily, and you have more than enough source usage to make up for that time, but there's very little development going on during on and imo it's just too long.

i think the piano that starts at :42 could use a sharper attack, and the sample throughout is just a little too exposed for it's own good. there are some really low notes being played, as will as some pretty thick, dissonant chords that muddy up the soundscape at times. it seems like it's in 4/4 the whole time, but the 'one-on-da-floor' rhythm doesn't really support the melodies, and the phrasing ends up a bit disjointed and hard to follow at times.

also, the piano sequencing is mechanical. needs more timing and velocity changes.

arrangement-wise, you've definitely expanded on the sources quite a bit harmonically, and the transitions/meshing of sources worked fairly well, however (and I will defend pokemon music to the death) these source tunes are pretty harmonically awkward to begin with, and that aspect of it has carried into your remix.

I'd have to go with a NO on this one, and I'm certain the panel would go the same way. first thing i would recommend fixing up is the piano sequencing with some timing/velocity edits. not bad, but there is still a lot that can be fixed or improved.

[SLyGeN]

Halc, I appreciate the crits, and it's been bugging me for the past eight hours since I read the post at school because I sincerely want to implement these fixes and get something on this site. I'm really not trying to sound defensive, but I almost have to ask if we are even talking about the same piece, here. Furthermore, some of the things you've recommended appear to outright contradict what you're going for. To top it off, a few of the issues you mentioned are actually things that I had done on purpose. So suffice to say I'm disappointed to hear that it's an unsatisfactory piece, but I'm still fucking determined, so let's make sure I'm clear on what you're looking for. Ready?

but there's very little development going on during [the intro] and imo it's just too long.

Noted. Personally I like the quality of the rain effect and thunderstorm, so I didn't think it was too long at all. If it's a personal opinion, I'll leave it. If you're objectively recommending, as a "judge" that it should be shortened, then I'll shorten it. My point was to start slow, set an ambience, and then explode with sound.. but do you recommend anything else for an intro build-up?

i think the piano that starts at :42 could use a sharper attack, and the sample throughout is just a little too exposed for it's own good.

Again, this is for ambiance. The reverb is all there for a reason, unless you simply recommend that I take off the pre-delay? I think that would detract, again, from the opening atmosphere. The picture I'm painting is a dark city street at 3:00AM, as you are nearing the entrance of Sprout Tower. The reverb needs to stay, or the entire ambiance falls apart. The piano is supposed to sound distant. However, again, if you simply suggest that I reduce the pre-delay only, then perhaps it'll work. Anyway, please advise/agree/disagree.

What doesn't make sense is wanting a sharper attack, and then asking for less exposure. Do you want me to cut the pre-delay and make the introductory piano even quieter?

there are some really low notes being played, as will as some pretty thick, dissonant chords that muddy up the soundscape at times

When you said soundscape, I thought you meant the introduction at first. Are you talking about the mellowed out/retrograde Olivine Lighthouse portion? If so, I agree. I'll rework the compositional structure so that the upper three voices are substantially higher than the bass.

it seems like it's in 4/4 the whole time, but the 'one-on-da-floor' rhythm doesn't really support the melodies, and the phrasing ends up a bit disjointed and hard to follow at times.

also, the piano sequencing is mechanical. needs more timing and velocity changes.

This appears to be outright contradictive, and I must be misunderstanding something. By one-on-the-floor, I can only assume you mean four-on-the-floor? The entire piece has a four-on-the-floor marching feel to it on purpose. But first you say the phrasing is too disjointed, and then you say the piano's phrasing is too mechanical. Make up your damn mind, dude! Like I said, I must be misunderstanding because you are correct @ the mechanically played piano. Everything is quantized down to the frame, which is on purpose because it's intended to be an electronic-sounding piece, but with orchestral instruments as well.

So anyway, are you wanting a more humanized piano performance, then? And, I'm still confused about it being disjointed. Yes, there are passing tones, but every beat is strong. So again, please advise.

however these source tunes are pretty harmonically awkward to begin with, and that aspect of it has carried into your remix.

This one really got me, and I'm really going to need some elaboration on this one. Each of these tracks (for the most part) are written in the Phrygian mode, and for the most part stay very true to the mode. Furthermore, I even disregarded most of the original harmony; the upper voice typically follows the original tune while the other three are harmonized with typical good voice-leading practices (for the most part, i.e. I don't give a fuck about parallel fifths when writing Phrygian). I sincerely hope you're not hearing Phrygian as "awkwardness," because it's a perfectly sensible mode to write with.

The composition element is where I personally feel like I shine with this piece, so please don't take my confusion offensively; tell me where you feel it's awkward, and we'll have a look at the sequencer so that any mistakes I could have made can be pointed out.

Furthermore, I still feel like my mixing could be done better. Your input on what I can do to use the audible bandwidth to the fullest degree would be very helpful.

And I feel that it's important that I point out, once again, I don't want to come across as being stubborn and defensive. Make no mistake, I think that sort of narrow-mindedness is very foolish. I'm simply a little confounded, and want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly before I dive back in and begin tweaking shit.

[halc]

Personally I like the quality of the rain effect and thunderstorm, so I didn't think it was too long at all. If it's a personal opinion, I'll leave it. If you're objectively recommending, as a "judge" that it should be shortened, then I'll shorten it. My point was to start slow, set an ambience, and then explode with sound.. but do you recommend anything else for an intro build-up?

personal opinion, but one I think others may share. no discredit for leaving it in, but I figured it might be worth mentioning.

Again, this is for ambiance. The reverb is all there for a reason, unless you simply recommend that I take off the pre-delay? I think that would detract, again, from the opening atmosphere. The picture I'm painting is a dark city street at 3:00AM, as you are nearing the entrance of Sprout Tower. The reverb needs to stay, or the entire ambiance falls apart. The piano is supposed to sound distant. However, again, if you simply suggest that I reduce the pre-delay only, then perhaps it'll work. Anyway, please advise/agree/disagree.

yeah, the reverb is fine. I'm just referring to the attack. each note kind of bleeds into the next. I understand the distant sound your going for, I just think the individual note attacks could use a little more clarity.

What doesn't make sense is wanting a sharper attack, and then asking for less exposure. Do you want me to cut the pre-delay and make the introductory piano even quieter?

lack of clarification on my part. too exposed; i'm referring to the main piano that comes in after the intro. to put it plainly, it's dry and fake sounding, could maybe actually use a touch more reverb or release, and of course the mechanical sequencing is a given by now. it's also pretty bright, i'd recommend dropping some of the mid frequencies a bit or just trying out some different piano samples altogether. some more stereo width/separation might also help make it sound a little fuller.

When you said soundscape, I thought you meant the introduction at first. Are you talking about the mellowed out/retrograde Olivine Lighthouse portion? If so, I agree. I'll rework the compositional structure so that the upper three voices are substantially higher than the bass.

by soundscape i just mean the overall texture of the piece. the lower end of the piano tends to stick out or overpower the upper octaves a bit, especially when it's playing some of the thicker chords, as well as those really low notes at 1:44-2:15.

This appears to be outright contradictive, and I must be misunderstanding something. By one-on-the-floor, I can only assume you mean four-on-the-floor? The entire piece has a four-on-the-floor marching feel to it on purpose. But first you say the phrasing is too disjointed, and then you say the piano's phrasing is too mechanical. Make up your damn mind, dude! Like I said, I must be misunderstanding because you are correct @ the mechanically played piano. Everything is quantized down to the frame, which is on purpose because it's intended to be an electronic-sounding piece, but with orchestral instruments as well.

by disjointed, I'm not sure how else to phrase this, but the melody and drums just don't flow together very well, and it becomes easy to lose track of the actual rhythm. every individual beat is strong, but the melodic phrasing just feels kinda random at times. after a few listens I could follow it pretty fluidly, but i'd go for a second opinion on this. I was discussing it with someone as I was writing my initial review and they felt the same way, so I don't think it's just me.

This one really got me, and I'm really going to need some elaboration on this one. Each of these tracks (for the most part) are written in the Phrygian mode, and for the most part stay very true to the mode. Furthermore, I even disregarded most of the original harmony; the upper voice typically follows the original tune while the other three are harmonized with typical good voice-leading practices (for the most part, i.e. I don't give a fuck about parallel fifths when writing Phrygian). I sincerely hope you're not hearing Phrygian as "awkwardness," because it's a perfectly sensible mode to write with.

to be honest, I'm not a music theory bluff, and I have no experience writing or classifying phrygian-mode music, but I've had this on loop for a long time now and I think I've warmed up to this aspect. the 1:10-2:00 area does have some awkward moments for me, and it could just be the result of too many notes in the chords or that super-low piano bit causing extra dissonance.

Furthermore, I still feel like my mixing could be done better. Your input on what I can do to use the audible bandwidth to the fullest degree would be very helpful.

overall, the piece is heavy in the mid/high's. there's nothing really filling up the lower frequencies of the soundscape, even the low end of the piano is EQ'd pretty high. i'd also suggest lowering the high's on your cymbal percussion and boost the lows or the channel volume on your kick, to give it a punchier sound. I think more stereo separation on some of the orchestral elements would also help fill up some of the empty space. also, that [synth/electric guitar?] suffers from the same problems as the piano - dry and unrealistic (if it's supposed to be a guitar) tone. again I would recommend playing with some different samples, or maybe trying out some fuller synth sounds and smoothing it out with a little reverb.

And I feel that it's important that I point out, once again, I don't want to come across as being stubborn and defensive. Make no mistake, I think that sort of narrow-mindedness is very foolish. I'm simply a little confounded, and want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly before I dive back in and begin tweaking shit.

thanks. I understand, and I appreciate you calling me out. hopefully I didn't come across as terse in my review. my feedback-giving skills are still a little rough and I do tend to over-generalize/exaggerate or not fully explain myself, so this was a good chance for me to realize what I need to tweak as well, as far as my critiquing goes.

anyway, I hope this clears things up a bit.

[SLyGeN]

Awesome; this has become extremely helpful, and I even saw a few ideas in your post that had come to me as well, like adding more reverb to the piano and also adding some lows/mids to it.

I actually cut the mids and lows out early on because I wanted the piano to cut through, but now that the piece has become much more solidified, I agree that it wasn't a good idea. Stereo spread on the piano would also be great, I think. I'll go fatten that sucker right up.

And as always, I plan to go through your post with a fine-toothed comb as I'm editing. Expect a better overall mix and texture in the next version.

Also, that electronic synth wasn't supposed to be a guitar, although it does have distortion. Synth modeling is where most of my shortcomings are. Basically all I want is an edgy electronic sound. And, if it evokes images of a poorly synthesized guitar, that's a bad thing; it's something I should tweak.

I think I know where the rhythm is getting to you as well. At 4:52, burned tower comes in. The lower instrument (original, and in mine) is quite syncopated, and thus purposely does not line up with the strong beats (or even any of them necessarily). It's something done on purpose in the original, and I decided to keep it that way (even though it's an easy adjustment) for the sake of variety. Constant four-on-the-floor gets old quick. .. and.. hm, with that in mind, perhaps I shouldn't dive right into the four-on-the-floor style at the very beginning. That might alleviate/cover up some of the piano's shortcomings. .. something I'll mess with.

Anyway, thanks again.

[halc]

I'm glad I could help

[qgpr]

Im just an average listener, but since you are adding the long intro for mood the rain was cut too suddenly, maybe if you add fx of entering the tower, like two hard steps on wooden floor or whatever that gives the idea quickly.

[SLyGeN]

Personally I'm not a big fan of sound effects in my music unless they're ambient. My idea isn't specifically to aurally paint a picture, but rather to keep the focus on your ears and whatever emotions the sounds can convey. I usually find that man-made sound effects sharply detract from the pleasant solitude of getting lost in the music.

On another note, finals have begun and I also just got a job! This means a lot less free time, so this mix may have to be put on hold. I will, however, archive the most recent posts in a text document with the rest of my project files for reference just in case this thread gets so old that it drops off of the forum.

[phantasia]

I'm not familiar with the source, but I think it's not too bad. You got some pretty good harmonies going on at mid/high.

But I'll give some critique to work with:

The intro is a tad bit too long imo, but it's a nice transition when the piano kicks in. I agree with halc. you need some more low-end presence and the low piano notes kind of mesh into each other causing too much dissonance.

The low piano notes you have are too high EQed. For example at 5:10 this is clear.

I'm not really a fan of the dissonance you put on the kick at 1:40 around there.

Good luck! I'm also determined to get a mix on this site someday

[jabond23]

To be honest, i'm all too familiar with the source. I stopped playing Pokemon back when red/blue first came out. Beat that sum-bitch about 4 or 5 times and caught everyone of those damn Pokemon! lol

Anyways. I really like the intro. Very melodic and sets the mood very well. I think your production is spot on man. The drums are very well done also. It seems easier to mix electronic music like this rather than metal, lol. My only gripe with the drums is that sometimes the snare sounds too fake. Not sure if that's me, but maybe its cause it fits with your genre of music for this remix. I like that piano. Sounds really good. What samples are the piano your using? I'm not too sure about the transitions though. It just kinda sounds like one song on the album ends and moves on to the track on the album. I'm sure that was your obvious intent though. Just my thoughts on that.

Either way man, it says finished and its definitely finished! Good stuff man!

[SLyGeN]

Thanks both of you for the comments, I'll archive the additional suggestions for when I work on this in the future.

I agree with most of what has been brought up, especially the snare sound.. as the sequencer, I think I've gotten desensitized to some of the smaller details. I'll dig through Reason to see if I can find a better snare.